Average Joe wouldn’t even listen to all this. Try explaining the jump system in KOF to a casual gamer and dude’s head is gonna explode. It’s not that it’s complicated for people who are into fighting games, but the Average Joe is likely to take a shining to SF since, at base level it’s easier to explain and slower.
Maybe the average joe in the US. It still doesn’t change the implication that KOF is most played series globally, those skilled and unskilled. All a new player needs to know to be annoying is just to roll and press GCCD all the time and it’ll mess up other beginning players and some mediocre intermediate players. And press a lot of jabs, cr.C, cl.C or any other fast C/D type attack that’s relatively safe. Take Goro in 98 for example. Just learn dp+K command throw, press a lot of st.B, st.C, st.D, gimmick roll around, and press GCCD when someone actually gets close enough to do an attack. Or play Chris and do j.CD and slide all day. Most average people will just irked by “fireball spamming” games such as SF and lean towards KOF because it give leeway with rolls and what not. Another example is 02 Athena for the beginner. Just keep doing A version Psychoballs and press a lot of buttons and it’ll also frustrate other low level and mid level players. A lot of things could go unpunished in low level KOF and that kinda rewards low level players and encourages them to play. Try rolling ST O.Sagat or 3s Chun for an average player and it’s pretty easy to beat him because it’s simply easier to capitalize on mistakes in SF.
Thanks for the reply Laban. Learning the low jumps seem like a real challenge.
just keep hopping! you’ll get it eventually
I had preordered KoF13 a few days ago and decided to come to this section and skim a few more threads and ask which KoF/SNK game/s should I “acquire” and prepare with (I enjoyed Garou the few times I played it even without a movelist beyond that CvS and CvS2 years ago when they hit console is my experience with KoF/SNK). Glad I came in here, Laban’s posts were very informative and I put the tutorial on my watch later list. Thank you.
Also what is the stick layout for buttons?
Offline, play 2002 UM. Online, play 98 or 2002 on GGPO.
There are two button layouts.
Type A (modern):
:snka::snkc:
:snkb::snkd:
Type B (classic):
:snkb::snkc::snkd:
:snka:
Edit: You can also join #SNKPlaymore on EFnet to find people to play with or talk about the games.
Naturally those are the arcade layouts, but I’ve seen a HUGE number of people who have been playing the games at home for years that use
ABC
D
This is possibly a bit more comfortable if you’re playing on your own, standard 6 button stick due to having A still on your index finger, etc. Also more familiar if you dig the anime fighters, they typically do it that way.
I’m thinking that sooner or later I’ll come across a KOF XIII or a neogeo in an arcade and don’t want to screw myself over (so I stick to the oldschool layout) but just mentioning a popular button organisation.
Yeah, I think that layout is popular with Chinese players, but it’s non-standard. It makes sense to put the ‘D’ button on the thumb in games like BlazBlue and Melty Blood (or ‘S’ in MvC3) because it has a special function. In KOF, however, ‘D’ is just a heavy kick, so I don’t really see why you would want to put it there.
I don’t know about you but considering I rarely need to hit the D several times in a row quickly (imagine a sweep that chained into itself), so my thumb would work pretty well.
Well, when I play KOF on an arcade stick, I always just assign ABCD to all the lower four buttons, and left the top four unassigned.
If I’m using a pad, then it’s Type A set-up.
Funny thing I noticed…
After grinding my teeth in rage too many times over being able to do Athena’s DM facing right (hcbx2+A/C) but not facing left, I figured I’d try out KOF 2k2 (having pretty much only played 98). Some stuff feels easier, but now the problem’s reversed: I can only do the DM facing left, but not right!
Bottom line is most all KOF’s feel a little wonky with the controls compared to SF (gimme 3s’s controls any day) till you get used to em. 2k2 less than 98 though.
I respect KOF as a fighting game but I don’t really like it’s playstyle. It’s almost kind of mindless in the way it approaches offense and rushdown. It’s so different from SF. In SF, it’s more realistic in that you have to get a feel of your opponent first before committing to any rushdown. In KOF, everyone is hopping around like a rabbit…you even see big characters like Raiden and Chang hopping around. In that sense, everyone feels the same in KOF in how you approach offense. There’s no footsies really going on in KOF. I kinda compare KOF to Tekken…it’s all about landing that small jump into a big combo kinda like how Tekken is with it’s dashing back and forth and landing a launcher into a combo. Once you knock down your opponent, you gain a HUGE advantage w/ meaty attacks, small jump overhead/low BnB combo traps similar to how powerful Tekken’s Oki rushdown is. SF is more like VF for me in that you have to feel each other out with your basic attacks…there’s lots of frame data on attacks which you must pay a lot of mind to and must really think about how you approach your offense. You wait for your opponent to make a mistake first. Throws are very useful in SF too just like they are in VF whereas in KOF and Tekken, not so much.
Movement and ways of approach are more homogenized, yes due to having more subsystems than the staple SF game, but it doesn’t mean it’s mindless. Every character could walk forward, block, and neutral jump in SF then work their footsies. KOF is no different. The thing is with KOF is that it has less emphasis on SF-style footsies of weaving in and out of poke range and trying to counter poke an opponent, but has a more diverse sense of movement and the ability to space and poke. It’s incorrect to simply say that there aren’t any footsies going on in KOF, but the way that it is implemented is certainly different than how it is in SF. Just because there are strong overhead/low tactics doesn’t mean that it becomes “mindless.” You can anti-air a hop easily with a st.A, a Mexican Uppercut, a neutral hop or backwards hop with a horizontal attack, specials that cover the hop range, etc. When a player whiffs a cr.B, an opponent could counter poke it with a cr.D much akin to a person whiffing a cr.LK and being punished by a cr.HK. When a player tries to maneuver around a fireball/zoning archetype of a character in KOF, most characters can’t simply just hop over an airborne projectile and more traditional footsies come more into play. Try “brainlessly” rushing down Athena in 02 or Goro in 98, it doesn’t work. There is more credence to spacing and set-ups than you may think there are in KOF. Seriously, play KOF against a good person and try to hop all day; the game is largely ground-based and you’ll get anti-aired for free.
“SF is more like VF for me in that you have to feel each other out with your basic attacks” , are you implying that this doesn’t occur in KOF at all? Have you seen Versus Festival 02um match videos or Re:vamp 98umfe vids? Many players generally have to feel out the intents and the approaches of the opponent before trying to go in, that is if the players want to go in. Just as offense is good in KOF, defense is really strong as well as there is a more diversified means of aerial and ground movement to cover spaces that traditionally couldn’t be covered in SF. I see players turtle it out especially in 98umfe as well as players trying to maintain their spacings with characters such as Jhun/K’/King/Kasumi/Nameless and hold a strong neutral game. In older games such as 98 Slugfest, players had to be more cautious in approaching Goro or Chizuru due to their strong zoning abilities. Offense and Defense are certainly a bit more proactive in KOF, but aspects of momentum that occur in SF occur just as well in KOF.
“…There’s lots of frame data on attack which you must pay a lot of mind to”, really now? Considering you registered in 2003, I was hoping more of the senior members of SRK would know better by now that frame data isn’t that all important. It’s helpful in confirming which certain attacks are generally safe or not, but it doesn’t really help or dictate how a game is played. Even in games such as VF and SF, knowing when an attack is either positive/negative, safe/unsafe is important but that could be easily found out by just feeling out a move and applying it in a match. Knowing the actual frame data doesn’t really change knowing when a frametrap is a frametrap or actually affect spacing techniques or any of the sort. Same in KOF, attacks still have advantage/disadvantage as in SF/VF/Tekken/etc. and there are attacks that are punishable and others that are safer that could lead into some fancy frametrap or set-up. Attacks are attacks.
“Throws are very useful in SF too just like they are in VF whereas in KOF and Tekken, not so much.” This is also incorrect, mainly in regards to KOF. Throws are more easily teched in KOF98 than it is in general SF games, but in later games such as 02um it’s actually more difficult to tech than games such as SSFIV or about as hard as in 3s. Tick throws might not be as relevant, but throws in general have different but frequent applications in KOF. One common application is for punishing rolls. An equivalent to a tick throw or walk-up throw tactic in SF that occurs in KOF is setting up an opponent with an empty hop and simply throw him. Another set up is for an okizeme mix-up involving a safe, empty hop into a command throw set-up. Since there is no alternate guard that could be set up, the opponent is forced to guess to hop/jump out or not since command throws can’t be teched. If the opponent does hop or jump, the player could option select and do f.C to hit the opponent with an anti-air; and if the opponent didn’t hop/jump, the opponent will eat a normal throw. Sure the normal throw could be teched, but the mix-up lies in the command throw. That leads into another issue, command throws and proximity unblockables and that both are prevalent amongst the cast of each game and have large impact upon flow, pace, and tactics of the game. To say that throws are not as useful in KOF than they are in SF is just plain wrong.
I’m sorry to say dude; but in general, it seems like you know next to nothing about KOF. Yet, you’re making this audacious claim without solid evidence to back it up. It’s one thing to say you don’t like it, and that’s okay. But, your reasoning and lack of understanding of the game shows that you’re basing your opinion of the series with ignorance and faulty analogies. Then you use the whole “fame data” bit like a traditionally bad SRK poster trying to sound smart or something. It’s almost like I’m being trolled here, and I certainly hope that’s not the case. " It’s so different from SF. In SF, it’s more realistic…," so you just don’t like KOF because it’s not SF? You could have just said so rather than making ignorant statements. I also don’t see how realism makes a “game” a “good game.” The characters throw fireballs from their hands, jump 2-3 meters into the air, and crouch on the ground a lot trying to kick each other.
Yes I know there is strategy w/ KOF’s movement system but like I said, it’s not to my liking. It just looks and feels kinda dumb to me but again, it’s just my opinion. I’ve watched a TON of Japanese matches and tournament footage on KOF and trust me, 90% of the time you’ve got characters all jumping and rolling around. I’m not gonna go into specifics on all the different older KOF games but mainly I’m taking about KOFXIII. Also it seems every basic attack leaves you at either even or positive frame advantage…there’s not very much depth to the basic attacks of which there are only 4. The footsies in this game is pretty limited…it’s simply run up and do st. B or cr. HK, etc. Also it just really bugs me that you can just run up and do meaty attacks on a downed opponent without no real threat of being in danger. Meaty attacks are too strong. Same with the small jumping shenanigans…sure you can stop small jumps w/ a st. A, or a DP move but honestly, the risk and reward isn’t there. A mistimed st. A means you eat a huge small jump combo that takes a way half your life. If you do time the st. A right, they eat only 10 damage.
Same with DP’s in this game…they don’t have much priority and plus can be safe jumped a lot of the time so that’s why you barely see tournament players use it b/c it’s just too risky. Not to mention they don’t really do much damage overall either. Small jumping not only lets you land huge damage, it also beats low pokes, is an overhead, good for baiting out DP’s and gives you a huge offensive edge such as empty jump into low BnB combo or empty jump into a throw/command throw…now what are your defensive options? Well you can waste 1 bar by trying to CD attack while blocking but then you waste 1 meter and your opponent eats like 5 damage? You can try rolling but the opponent can throw you out or land a BnB combo on your roll recovery. So now you’re left with doing a psychic DP which is too risky or timing a st. A which doesn’t really deter the attack from jumping on you again and landing a HUGE combo. I’ve seen tournament matches where one guy is helpless in the corner while the other guy small jumps almost “mindlessly” for free…when I say mindless, I don’t mean it literally. I know there’s strategy but like I said, it’s too much in favor of small jumping. So these guys are both pros at this game and yet one guy is so helpless and all the other guy is doing is small jumping on him…it just isn’t right. That’s kinda what I mean when I say it’s kinda mindless. As for getting in on top tier chars like Goro98(his one frame st. D lol?) and Athena 02, I don’t care too much about that…I’m just glad that shit isn’t in KOFXIII.
No I never implied that it doesn’t occur AT ALL. Just that it doesn’t really occur as much as it should…it’s too focused on small jumping for my liking. It’s almost like the game should be called SMALL JUMP FIGHTERS lol. For the most part, strong defense usually comes down to picking characters w/ cheap attacks like Goro98 and his st. D. But defense as a whole in this game is quite limited and needs to be stronger.
I think frame data is quite important…in KOF, sure you’ve got recovery on some attacks but they’re all to be expected such as recovery on DP’s, special moves that travel across the screen, hypers, etc. I’m mainly talking about basic attacks. It seems like everyone’s standing or crouching basic attacks are safe on block. Overheads and link attacks(F + A,B) are all safe too. Everything is a bit too safe in this game…small jumps, basic attacks, heck even some special attacks are very hard to punish on recovery. I feel like all the characters basically have the same frame datas on their basic attacks. There just isn’t much dimension to fighting it out…it’s more about jumping in and landing that huge combo. It’s kinda like how in Tekken(KOF) everyone almost kinda feels and plays the same but in VF(SF), everyone is uniquely different.
Yes I was mainly referring to tick throws…it’s almost feels non existant when I watch KOF matches. Even so, why tick throw when you can keep the pressure going w/ small jumps and land huge damage? Also the throws all feel the same…they all throw each other the same distance and it’s basically just that…a throw. In SSF4, throws have different dimensions to them. Some throws leave the opponent right next to you which you can set up for a cross up or meaty…others help set you up for safe jumps, or free chip damage, etc. In SF3rd strike, you always see guys pressuring each other w/ throws…same thing with VF games. Throws are a huge part of mindgames. In Tekken, SoulCalibur and KOF, throws take a huge backseat unless you’re a grappling character but that’s to be expected.
I never said KOF is a bad game…I respect it as a fighting game. It takes a lot of skill to truly master it for sure. I just don’t like all that small jumping around and how dominant it is. It just looks silly to me and isn’t very fun. It’s like round 1, FIGHT!!! BAM both characters start rolling, hopping and jumping around like rabbits lol. I’m more used to characters walking back and forth, judging each other’s range like in a real fight and using his or her pokes to calculate their distance of attack…to me, that’s the beauty of a fight just like being in a real fight. Like I dunno, if KOF ever was to be made into an anime or movie, all I gotta say is they better capture the aspect of small jumping into their fight scenes lol but man it sure would look silly. Just ranting sorry lol…but hey to each their own.
O god, you are so misinformed I’m not even sure where to start.
Except that it is typical of KOF that virtually no attack have + frames on block (or even hit) at all. For example K’'s normals in KOF2002 are ALL negative or neutral on block except for close A, which is +3, but it whiffs on crouchers so… wait to go showing complete ignorance about KOF.
Except that there’s hops which give a whole new dimension to footsies, kinda like how sidestepping in Virtua Fighter gives you the opportunity to dodge straight moves but not circular moves.
Yes meaties are good, and yes dp’s are a bit weak, but most characters with a DP can actually beat out or trade with a meatie, which at least nets you a knockdown.
A mistimed dp in Street fighter also means you eat a huge combo. The chances of you recovering in time to block are actually pretty high rather making st.A a very GOOD thing risk/reward wise. This clearly shows your massive lack of understanding of the game and its risk-reward distribution.
Yeah, I’d like to see you try safejumping. Almost no moves do a hard knockdown, and even then the timing usually comes down to a 2 frame window, or 3 frames at best. There is actually moves that simply cannot be safejumped at all. (Athena’s shining crystal bit, for example). If anything, safejumps play a FAR less important role in KOF than in Street Fighter.
Yeah except if you guard cancel roll, you are completely invulnerable to throws and strikes, and if your opponent automodes into offense will whiff massively slow moves giving you a free punish.
98 Goro’s st.D is 5 frames startup and his close D is 4 frames startup. This is respectively 2 and 3 frames slower than Chun’s close Hard Kick. You’re pulling framedata out of your ass.
Are you serious? Iori cr.D would like a word with you. If you don’t cancel a lot of your basic heavy attacks they’re generally pretty bad on block. And canceling out of unsafe moves pushes the opponent out and generally stops their momentum.
Are you serious? In 2002 K’ f+B is punishable ON HIT, Yashiro’s f+A is pretty punishable on block as well. You have absolutely no idea what you’re saying.
no.
Yeah… except any retard can block jump mixups, so actually jumping in like a maniac seldomly makes you land massive combos. Landing damage is mostly landing from punishes of really unsafe stuff, baiting slow normals that whiff etc. Once again you showcase your ignorance.
You know nothing. Compare Whip’s D throw to Mature’s D throw and you’ll realise how utterly retarded it was to say what you just said.
See. that’s the first time you’re vaguely make sense with an opinion. You’re free to dislike this game. I have no clue why you would come in a thread about KOF or even come into a FORUM about KOF to tell us this. But your facts are all wrong and you’re incredibly misinformed about the game. Maybe if you’d actually put time into it you’d find you like it!
Yeah sorry dude. You utterly know nothing about KOF. I don’t why you’d come here into the KOF subforum to tell us you don’t like KOF. I mean, it’s okay that you don’t. It’s okay that you don’t like KOF because it’s not SF. I don’t see why you have to come here and tell us though. You clearly are showing that you’re ignorant about KOF as a whole and that you would rather play SF. We get it. Just leave or something. This thread is about helping new players get into KOF. Are you trying to make new players stray away from getting interested in a different fighting game other than SF? Stop this shit. You’re not even doing a good job of it.
Stop using Virtua Fighter analogies please. It’s ironic that you keep trying to compare Street Fighter to it when Virtua Fighter is one of the most homogenized fighting games out there, even more so than KOF. You’re sounding like many of those scrubs that say “VIRTUA FIGHTER IS DEEP” yet don’t even play the game.
LOL and you guys wonder why the KOF community is so small…always so quick to throw out insults at anyone who disagrees.
Dr. Grammar, I don’t know anymore at this point.
You’re saying incorrect things about KOF, and some how that’s disagreeing? Being wrong is being wrong. If anything, you’re the one making our scene damn smaller because you’re spouting all this bullshit left and right to new players that don’t know better.
You can’t even defend your stance. You’re dodging the issue and had to “low blow” with the fact our scene is small. It’s small because there are idiots like you who don’t know shit about KOF and make faulty impressions and spread it around and some how people take your word.
Actually I do have a point…all of your counterarguments are usually just one instance or a few examples here and there. I don’t have time to discuss each and every single installment of KOF. It doesn’t change the fact that KOF generally is all about rushdown w/ small jumps…all you have to do is simply watch a match video of KOF and it’s so obvious.