well yeah I understand your point, but to a degree, I mean maybe I didn’t explained myself too well, but what I’m basically saying ( and said) is that top tiers are top tiers by theirselves, is totally independant on who is playing them, is not something the players can control, sure, there are examples of good Angels or good players owning ass with mid, low tiers, but that doesn’t make the character ( not the player) a top tier, sure Ismael Angel is devasting like u show in that vid, but that’s an example of ismael being a top player, not an angel being top tier character.
And also, why is he playing angel even in UM? because he has been playing with her for a looooong time in OG and logically it was and it is his first choice in UM, along with whip ( which he uses in OG as well) now he just traded the ridiculous broken atena in OG for king there, but if he had chosen atena in um she would had worked great for him as well because he knows how to play her at her top, but that wouldn’t make her top tier in UM either. as u said she might lack of bad match ups but tiers usually have more symptoms, and maybe in Japan she isn’t since um increased the stamina and angel has little damage and she lost her infinite ( at last, no more cheapness). That’s something in where asians have an edge over some Mexicans, in the ability to adapt better to different games, being able to play with different characters and styles, that’s one of the conclusions and analysis one can come up with after seeing the so called videos of cola vs kula and osmani.
And about duo lon a top tier in xi well, I guess u don’t want to get into that again lol but sorry for me he isn’t , and to try to compare it as a character and as a leader to oswald ( like the debate was before) is just absurd to me, but it’s my own opinion after all.
Well you are entitled to your opinion, and I would comment on it more but I do not feel it is appropriate for this particular thread, maybe a 2002 UM or KOFXI Thread but not for this particular thread. Tiers are not absolute, and as I say they reflect the players in particular regions…and that’s basically all that needs to be said about that particular topic I feel without going into further detail. Some characters may take work but at their maximum potential can hang with the rest of the cast…Angel in 2002 UM is one of those characters and Duo Lon Leader is another, though yes Oswald is better than Duo Lon Leader period, but Duo Lon Leader is better than most of the cast in KOFXI…even WITH their Leaders…
And remember the TRUE definition of a Tier List:
It is a list of the characters based off not only ease of use as everyone knows, but who wins tournaments/ranks high in a particular country or region.
In Juarez you are certainly going to see characters like Duo Lon Leader, Oswald, Kim (L), Duck King, Kula, Malin (L), Ryo ranking high…
Also Ismael does not like Athena in 2002 UM, he says she doesn’t work for him…Athena at best would probably be B to A Class in 2002 UM. Now I am aware there could be things I have not seen and acknoweledge that…
well then the differences of our criteria might be on what a tier list is for each one of us, for me the top tiers don’t neccesarily are dictaded by what is high in any given region, or by who wins tournaments with X or Y character, Kula and Gato will be top tiers, no matter the place, Asia or America,no matter who wins whatever tourney, even you here in Mexico use both of them, also, for me a good player isn’t neccesarily who wins X or Y tournaments. Alexis for example, can be wining al tournaments in Juarez using Always clark, yamazaki and billy (and billy is a character every player can use), but will that make him the better player? no, just probably the better player using those characters, since he probably wouldn’t make it far using others, and there are lots of examples of people like him, Esteban for example is a better player than him why? cuz winning doesn’t dictate who is better , other things such of style of play and the characters used for the tournament ,how did one wins ( clock, perfect, combos, etc),should be factors to consider, with his may lee, to make it effective he has to make 40 or 50% more effort since he has to switch or cancel in between combos,or for pressure strings something a clark or a billy player doesn’t need to do, similar thing goes for Angel and a vast list of characters. Kula and osmani got a lesson in all that in those so commented videos.
I believe our criteria is different, because to me it’s all about winning. It’s doing what it takes to win, as Vince Lombardi said, winning is everything. Alexis is considered better than Esteban because he wins, contrary to Emil once thinking he was a scrub, Alexis is far from a scrub. Now see Alexis has been choking as of late, so he may not even make the 6-on-6 cut for the North, that’s REAL TALK, you’ve gotta earn that, and how do you earn that? Ranking high in tournaments, that is the criteria that both me and Lecter use. Me and Lecter just had this conversation yesterday, between Lalo and Esteban, Esteban is a better player overall, but Esteban lets the pressure get to him a lot and it causes him to choke. Lalo handles the pressure with a I don’t give a damn attitude, so he does better than Esteban, so who do we say is the better player? Lalo…why? He handles the pressure better.
So it’s just two different ways to look at things. As I say there are no absolutes, but when it comes to international tournaments and stuff I wanna come to some set form of criteria because I refuse to go through JuareZ WarZone ever again, it will be settled win lose or draw who is the better player on not just one day, but THREE TO FOUR DAYS.
-DG
Read: Ismael does not like Athena in UM because he can no longer tier whore her like in OG2K2. No more sitting at the top with great zoning game = waste of time playing her now. Just like the May Lee, Angel, Choi player no longer “likes” those characters because they no longer have an infinite, dominating strings and the midget is no longer at the top of the tier list.
I don’t get why these players try to act if they feel out of likeness with the character when it painfully obvious they just tier whore. Thing is, I don’t even have an issue with that, just don’t get why they don’t just come out and say it.
Now that’s actually a good interview question to ask him lol.
well aren’t you contradiciting yourself here? double standaring? first you say wining is everything… then u use another criteria such as pressure managing to define who is better player between lalo and esteban…
And for me and to other players winning isn’t everything, u see, there is “winning”, and WINNING for example, if u like soccer , there are teams that win badly, 1-0 defending being pussies, playing bad, and there are others like brazil or netherlands, that WIN playing nice, playing bonito, to them winning playing badly contrary to their style or philosophy means nothing they preffer to loose before winning like that, and that’s what make them great. Same thing in kof, there are better players that preffer to know they are better , WIN playing nicely and flashy, with difficult characters to handle, than simply going tier all time. Personaly winning by doing these when I can, tastes better than simply winning using krauser, kula, etc or winning by judgment, time etc, that’s why cola is better tahn kula or osmani.
I don’t see it as contradicting myself, to me there is no double standard period, the one that wins the most is the better player, to me it’s black and white it’s that simple, I do not allow myself to be influenced by other types of thinking, especially when most of the time it’s my money being spent to bring a lot of these players over. What I want when it is done is a finality, most questions being answered, whoever won was better, no excuses all of that.
Yeah of course no one wants to see someone Tier Whore all the time, but from the flip side as even Desmond says in his interview/podcast:
People are playing for money, which is something people simply have to understand, and until they get to that particular level of play or close, and I do mean that particular level where pressure is high and you are close to tasting that money, then more than likely that is a hard concept to grasp 100% because you’ve never been in that situation.
It’s almost a fan like perspective, a casual player like perspective, but not a perspective from a competitive player that is trying to do what it takes to win, and that’s the type of player I am and those are the criterias I use.
Now I tell people even when they watch my videos if they don’t like the fact that I use XYZ character I tell them they can always choose not to watch, that is their God given right, no one is making them watch, but when I am playing seriously for money on the line I am going to use the characters not only I feel the most comfortable with be it if they are top tier or not, but the ones I FEEL fit my style and give me the BEST chance to win.
Now if I am losing who knows I could pull out some surprise characters and at times I do, that is the benefit of learning the entire cast, you could exploit a matchup that your opponent may not know, and that may be the difference in the game.
So summary- Criteria for me bottom line is wins…wins period, wins/ranking high…that’s it…nothing more, nothing less. Winning/ranking high with consistency…
Alexis=Better than Esteban why? Alexis has beaten Esteban in tournaments more and has ranked higher than Esteban more often.
Lalo is better than Esteban why? Lalo has consistently ranked higher than Esteban in tournaments.
That is my criteria. I keep it simple, I don’t like complicating it, especially when we are talking about an excess of $2,000 being spent on these things, I like to keep it simple and get questions answered. I leave the discussions, theories, all that stuff to you guys, my job is to get answers…
Its ambitious as hell in this thread and from what I see at the moment its not even rightfully about the topic of the thread. But hey whatever…
Hence I say if we wanna talk about 2002 UM and KOFXI we should direct it to those particular threads…if it wants to be about 98UM FE then we can keep it here lol.
Well this seems that is getting nowhere because, we don’t understand each other way of thinking, so I will try to ressume it as much as I can with one example, btw I never talked about money, u brought that up, money playing, life playing, regular tournament, or whatever it’s just part of the enviroment, the atmosphere…but for me, and other people, fans or not as u called us, there is “winning”, and Winning , playing nice, bonito, flashy whatever, I for example, ( I don’t know if you) would respect more, and admire more a player that wins a tourney, money on the line or not, ( mostly money) using chin, mature and seth than a common one tier whoring with atena or kim etc, not just in kof, like in baseball, “oh! yankees have won the world series!” but meeeh…they have all the money in the world, but if the I dunno pithsburg pirates won! now that creates more excitement and respect for the people, and that is exactly what the videos of cola vs kula and osmani represent and lets not forget other players that have done things like those , mostly asian, Because all of these, and other stuff I mentioned in previous posts, it’s why I consider them better, period.
As I said I understand that, people want the underdog to win, they get tired of seeing the same thing over and over and over, as I told you I understand that, but at the same time people have to understand I see both sides of the story, and so I see both arguments, the one you are talking about, and the one of the player that is playing his best characters and people hate him because he’s winning most of the time AND they just happen to be high/top tier and talk about they don’t respect them etc etc.
These people say they don’t respect them, but deep inside they do, and they know they do, people just like the underdog/bandwagon approach etc. If they didn’t respect these players then they would take them up on a money match first to 10 for $200 right instead of talking behind their backs and then disappearing when they confront them on it no? So yes most of this “lack of respect” stuff is mostly behind the back talk that people know they damn well wouldn’t say to that particular person because then they will be exposed for the phony/fraud they are!..yawn…been there seen that LMFAO.
So I understand why you consider the Asians better, you understand why I consider whoever wins better…as I said, to me it’s simple, winning is everything, be it if its with the worst characters in the game, or the best…I do not like excuses, you put your best foot forward in a tournament, whoever that is, because heaven forbid what are people going to say if it just happens to be low tier players? People automatically are going to make excuses…“Well what did you expect he was using ADON?”
Or since people put the Asians on a pedestal, heaven forbid if they lose to someone they consider inferior like the Mexicans since these people believe the Asians have the “Midas Touch” (Whatever they touch turns to gold/wins)…
They make excuses…
I don’t like excuses whatsoever, if you win you win, if you lose you lose.
Also you are looping the Asians into one category are you not? What about people in Brazil/South America that play low tiers and stuff like that? There are many sides to the story even in Latin America further South than Mexico that you are not considering…
It’s not just about Mexico vs. Asia… Mexico vs. Japan is a small part of the story, which will turn into Mexico vs. Taiwan, I mean look at Kensou from DF, he uses Ramon, Kensou, Athena, he could be your COLA so to speak in Mexico, does well with low tiers in tournaments… (sans Athena)
well maybe the word admiration is more proper than respect, and u can’t know if “deep inside” we do or not, I know who I respect and who I don’t,and I wouldn’t call it underdogs, I prefer to call them brave, innovative and talented. also are u accusing me and the people that share my views of being frauds? what do you want me /us to do ? what do you mean by confronting them? want me to go personally to tell them what qualities a good player has? or why asians are better?and make them a list of what they have and lack of? and would they beat me in a game of kof after that? of course they would no question, I don’t invest even a fraction of the time they have spent in kof ,but what would that proove? will that gave them the qualities they lack? would that make them better players? no. So what point would that have.
Ok, I’m glad that those mexicans players can compete at that level with those characters , I haven’t heard of them but that’s good =) about the asians having the midas touch no , that’s probably what people like emill thinks, but Mexico has proven them wrong
I’m talking about something in general, there will always be exceptions to the rule…but its something I’ve seen in my own personal shoes from being on the opposite side of the equation, the you know the guy hated and the people that talk behind others backs but vanish like ninjas when you put them to the fire, that other situation I told you about, so I am speaking in general terms etc and about mainly people here in the UNITED STATES.
Not all the people are how I speak of, but I have seen a LOT of them that way…
Plus different countries have different cultures etc and I have seen different attitudes in Mexico than I have in the USA, matter of fact the differences couldn’t be anymore apparent, like night and day…which is a different topic altogether. So how about those Krauser nerfs in Final Edition everyone? LOL.
Another person even in Juarez you aren’t considering- Hugo. Hugo uses Terry, Andy, Joe, Benimaru! He Got Top 6 in the Battle 4 Mexico 2010 tournament, he eliminated Alexis in the 2nd Round!
Kensou was also at this tournament, all you gotta do is look up my Battle 4 Mexico footage on my youtube account.
lol yeah actually hugo is one of my favorites, I was going to mention him earlier but I forgot lol I have seen him owning wih ralf and kyo too, I would chek that out
And how has Mexico proven them wrong again?
how? beating the average japanese player that should have won if they really had that midas touch just by beign Japanese
Dark Geese, not all Asian players have the Midas touch. No one is saying that all Asians are good at KoF. I think the claim, at least my claim, is that the best Asians play better than the best Mexicans. You’re just so damn blind and ignorant to the facts.
You’re so stuck on Mexicans dicks, that you probably don’t take the time to look at you tube footage of Asian tournaments. There isn’t just GGPO videos, there’s a myriad of good Asian tournaments that you’re taking for granted. I can even tell you’re one dimensional. I mean that Bata guy…sure he lost, but he’s certainly not the best by any means.
I thought a couple Mexicans were pretty damn good myself, but when I watched Dakou and Xiaohai play for the first time the only thing I could say was wow!
it amazes me how every thread in this forum ends up like this
Can we refrain from bashing u.s players based on personal experience or past bad encounters. That’s not the topic at hand
Question is about what or where 98 final will be released. you’re entitled to your own opinions about 98 UM or vanilla, whatever. there’s a new rebalance coming out. Try actually playing the game before you decide on how stupid it is or etc etc.
snk community will never grow if people keep dismissing games solely on speculation. There are games out there that are based or hae been based around tier lists surely, but you play the game and dissect it before lashing out about the quality. I could very easily say “Iori, Daimon, Chizaru are stupid. I don’t like that characters, and I see them played a LOT so fuck that game” same deal with krauser, geese, same deal with gato, oswalkd, kula in 11, or billy, athena, choi in 2k2 or K,Kasumi, nameless in 2k2 um. or testament, slayer, eddie in ggac
if you see other teams played, ignore the tiers. they’re not there to guide you to who you’re playing. infact most tier lists are based around either 1. What is played/seen the most or 2. Matchup charts.