Yeah that 118 was pretty serious. I’m guessing those were a bunch of HK manuals.
if orchid doesn’t look like janet jackson i will be disappointed.
she also needs a fat ass. and she needs to breathe heavily and moan after she wins with a supreme victory.
this has absolutely zero to do with gameplay but it had to be said. i’ll be that guy.
i want to see her morph animation, HOPEFULLY her tonfas glow and let off a light trail…
Hmm attacks don’t really beat bluffs, they punish bluffs. Doing nothing beats bluffs.
I’m more just reiterating what the guy on the Evo panel said, more so than worrying about the specifics. Even if you try to get into specifics, bluffs/counter breakers do not work against attacks and are pretty much only used to fight combo breakers. Meaning if the opponent stops and throws an attack at their counter breaker, they will get fucked up. It’ll be interesting to find out if attacking an opponent during their counter breaker locks them out or ups the damage on your combo.
This isn’t the 118-Hit Ultra, but Max did pull off a GDLK Combo for 3/4ths a Life Bar. This game does NOT look Noob Friendly. It’s gonna take some training to not only get these combos down, but to know when’s the right time to break 'em. Really hoping Double Helix includes a Combo-Breaker Tutorial or Trainer. There were several ways to stop that combo as Max stated, but timing seems to be everything in this game. It is also circumstantial since both the Shadow & Instinct meter were full, so…
…eh, I’ll shut up and let you watch.
Looks like Max saw what I saw and made a youtube video out of it. He definitely labbed that combo.
That’s basically a youtube video of what happens when a scrub player tries to mash out of a counter hit, full meter/instinct burn combo. It would have done a good lot of damage, but because you’re mashing out like a scrub you take kusoge game damage instead. That’s why at high level play it will make more sense to just take the combo sometimes (especially if they’re stocked on meters and counter hit you) instead of trying to blindly guess wrong multiple times. If you really don’t have enough understanding of the game or the opponent and they’re stocked with meters.
That video is a direct answer to the “I don’t like all da combo breakers” problem. The guy got punished that hard for mashing out combo breaks…and Max DID NOT use even ONE bluff. Once people get used to the timing for and situations to use bluffs on top of that, higher levels of play will be a lot more just letting people do their combos.
I agree, I definitely don’t think you should always break a combo, the punishment is just to severe.
I am curious what you can reliably reaction break.
Why not always go for a combo breaker?
The consequences for letting a full combo rip are too high.
Judging from the footage I’ve seen. A failed combo break adds about 20% to a combo.
I’m not saying never break, that threat needs to be there, but always breaking can make things worse than just having eaten the 20-30%
The consequences are about at least a 20% increase in combo damage and that’s without taking into account Instinct Cancels or Counter Breakers.
If you attempt a Combo Breaker without a reasonable guess you’re just asking for a free blowup.
I’ve heard someone say that they heard Filthie Rich say that he’s breaking most things on reaction. Yet I watched that “high level” video of Filthie and Max playing in the IMAX theater, and he was getting locked out and flubbing up shadow breakers all over the place.
At lower levels of play, mashing/guessing combo breakers isn’t a bad idea at all. Since the only layer you are using in the triangle is the first layer. You’re just playing the breakers beat attacks game. Most play you see of this game that doesn’t involve Filthie vs. Max is stuck in part 1 of the triangle.
At higher levels of play, you do not want to be throwing combo breakers out there on pure guesses. At higher level of play the opponent will pull the 2nd part of the triangle (bluffs beat breakers) and you will get locked out for the maximum 4 seconds. Meaning they can just wail on you even longer than if you had just guessed wrong and got regularly locked. Then on top of that you will be able to counter break at some random point during the combo. Which the opponent will be accounting for and like Max said, can throw in a Shadow Move anytime during that point so now you have to do a specific timing rhythm based input to counter the shadow move instead of just guessing the right 2 buttons.
The 3rd part doesn’t even need to really go into account, bu will eventually be used to solve the “people breaking my breakers” problem. Which right now…people need to force more of the 2nd part of the triangle.
Like Saitsu said…I believe there’s a generic damage increase the player gets if the lock you out of the combo. Plus, you’re generally forcing the combo to last longer since making a wrong breaker guess lengthens the time they can hit you with moves in the combo that are normally easy to break that do a shit ton of damage. So basically, screw up combo breaker, get hit with hard attack normals that you can’t break and will rape your health. Max’s Sabre shows this off really well with the guy getting slapped with hard normals over and over again with no recourse. Max can sit and be super comfortable doing anything he wants in the combo now no matter how easy it is to break.
Also a good point, it can be much worse than a simple lockout.
Also, worth thinking about. But with my understanding of basic lockout.
The later in a combo you break, the less punishment you receive. But, most damage comes from the ender. So breaking towards the end might have better risk/reward.
Agreed. High level play will most likely revolve around smarter players who know not to knee jerk mash on breakers to give the opponent incentive to shoot hard normals all over the place in their combos and activate instinct mode. Once you lock yourself out, you can’t even force the opponent to go to the manuals or lights anymore to reduce damage and make things harder to break. You’re now locked into taking a beatdown from those hard normals and special moves.
Especially early on in the fight when meters are low…just try to break before the ender so they can’t cash the damage if it’s something you can react to or is predictable. Otherwise they’ll most likely cash in early to get their guaranteed damage and not risk over extending the combo and getting broken.
So it’s basically like the parry meta game except you get fucked up more for wrong guesses?
Basically, at lower level play it seems like combo break fest. When you play against better players that mix up their combos, throw in shadow breaks and counter break, you take big punishment for trying to end people’s combos early without making a real read.
Yeah it shares some similarities to 3S’s parry games where parries were the breakers and throws/attack grabs were the bluffs. It’s just in that game you could too easily intertwine the parts of the triangle and option select them without much penalty. Until you get to like a real high level in that game, the OS’s can get overbearing.
This gives you that mind game within the combos, but with a much larger risk/reward ratio. While still keeping the neutral game mostly sound and solid.
Some more stuff on the 2 player combo meta game posted by DrDogg (old school high level Dead or Alive player).
****Auto-Doubles and Shadow Linkers can be broken on reaction, but Manuals cannot, and breaking Enders is pretty difficult unless you guess the opponent is going for a short combo. When you factor in the Bluff, things start to get pretty crazy. I played quite a bit at E3 and Evo, so I’ve put some time into what the potential metagame will be. There are so many different ways to look at breaking and combos in general.
**
Break Early
- If you miss the break, you’ll have another chance before too much damage is done (30% or more).
- If you get Bluffed, you’ll be out at least 30%, possibly more if they have meter and what to spend it.
Break Late
- If you miss the break, you won’t have another chance.
- If the opponent Bluffs early, you get a free punish and the damage inflicted is minimal.
- If the opponent ends the combo early, you’re out 20-30%.
- If you get the Breaker, the opponent loses a lot of potential damage, and if they used a Shadow Linker, they wasted meter as well.
No Break
- If the opponent goes for a Bluff at any point, you get a free punish.
- If the opponent goes for a Shadow Linker, you can bait a Bluff.
- If the opponent ends the combo early, you’re only out 20-30% instead of the 40-50% (or more) you would’ve lost had they done a full combo.
- If the opponent uses a full combo, you’re out a ton of damage.
Manuals do less damage because they’re only one hit, but it also depends on what you use to Manual. A Heavy Manual may do more damage than a Light Auto-Double. I believe Manuals also build less KV meter, so you can do longer combos and in turn, get more damage. Also, some Manuals end up being more than one hit. For instance, Sabrewulf can Manual from Light to Medium to Heavy, so you’d get three total hits. Jago can use the Around the World for a lot more than that (if you want to count Around the World as a Manual).
From my experience, Manuals basically replace an Auto-Double. You can go from a Linker to a Manual, then back to a Linker, but you can’t go from a Manual to an Auto-Double. I’m not sure if you can go from an Auto-Double to a Manual though.*
The Break Early, Break Late, No Break part goes into what Flying Ve was talking about earlier. Shows that risks are associated no matter when or if you break. It sounds like not breaking at all will be particularly strong as people learn to use all 3 parts of the triangle. Which is not the level of play people are at right now obviously.
I can see people actually confirming Instinct modes on lock out in the future. I’m actually surprised we haven’t seen that in these videos.
If you mean activating instinct mode when you see the opponent get locked out, yeah that will become a regular tactic later. Probably more so for Jago and Sabrewulf. Jago gets plus 4 on everything or something like that and Sabrewulf gets the damage increase. Glacius’ instinct seems to only strengthen him neutrally so unless you need the “XFC” to extend a combo you might as well safe it for a later cause. Otherwise you’re depleting time that could be used to blow through attacks with the armor.
Jago’s instinct opens up alot more manual links, so it might actually be better to use earlier, to cause a lockout. as manuals are harder to break. As opposed to after the lockout.