I’ll have to try that out, i’ll post if I have good results, haha.
Ken gets to combo into ex-tatsu which gives him good damage and a great mix-up.
Ken can more reliably link into his fierce srk off of hit confirm cr.jab combos because of its longer range (and even more reliably with kara fierce srk).
Ken’s high damage no meter punish combo (close hk xx hk.tatsu) is way easier than Ryu’s (f+hp, cr.hp, hp.srk), although to be fair Ken’s doesn’t fully connect against every character.
On early or trade hit srks Ken’s ex.srk combos for more damage than Ryu’s ex.fb.
No you can’t safe jump-in against 3 frame srks. Period. A safe jump-in is defined by your ability to hit the opponent or force block unless he does something invincible and in the event of doing something invincible you recovering in time to block it. This means that you have to have a move out in the air for at least one frame of their reversal window otherwise you can’t hit them. Then you have to land and block. Now in sf4 when you land having done a jumping attack you cannot block for 2 frames. So the one frame you’re in the air + the two frames you are unable to block after landing means that the 3 frame reversal srk will always hit you.
For more info:
Or
do it with a cross-up jump and OMFG look at that, their srk goes in the wrong direction and your jump-in attack prolly smacked them on the way up resetting them, either situation your entirely safe.
because like you said there are only 2 frames on the ground before you can block after a normal, so they have to hit their srk at the first possible second, which if your on point should be as your crossing their axis.
on another note, this could be wrong but with startup being 3 frames and you using 1 frame in the air, 2 on the ground wouldn’t you be in a position to block on frame 4 ie. their first active frame? this might be false and why your thinking all safe-jumps wont work but i know for a fact you can utilize a cross-up safe-jump.
No you are still wrong, good players will do a reverse dp motion (f,d/f,d,d/b+p) against crossups and get their reversal srk which will go in the right direction.
3 frame srks hit on the 3rd frame.
From the wiki:
j.lk will beat there reversal if they try to reverse with lp dp other then that they can beet u if they know how to properly reverse,but timing a good crossup wit lk or mk is safer but its never completely safe, and it dam sure aint safe if u playn a ryu,but does the enemy wanna risk it if u have good crossups n link no, so most of the time they will blok, but cant u dash outa crossups also? i used to use the step kik to get a way from crosups also
I assume you’re saying that because lp dragon punches have no invincibility on their first active frame. Yes this is true, however your j.lk will not beat them rather it will trade with them which will be in their favor in terms of damage, wakeup, and combo ability (full ultra for no meter for ryu for instance).
Furthermore the discussion at hand was about safe jump-ins and in order for your jumping move to still be active when their srk runs out of invincibility you are too slow for safe jump timing.
crosup lk will beat a lp dp its a fact
well, that actually explains a lot. sorry for arguing with you so much on this point >.<
my confusion was the culmination of the misconception that start-up frames were all non-active (i didn’t know they were written as start-up + first active)
on top of that it’s tough to get the training dummy to do srk’s non-stop and safe-jump window is so small so i would think i fucked up my timing when i got hit.
well this will certainly help my game vs. ryu and akuma lol.
edit: i also think i chalked up a few early safe jumps as being good ones, so placebo effect made me think i just landed and blocked and didn’t hit only cause of srk invincibility frames, when in reality i was 1 frame or whatever early for a true safe-jump and instead faked them out without knowing it.
but yeah we can still use empty jumps or i guess try for a “fake” safe-jump that wont actually hit them to bait srk’s.
edit2: i guess my cross-up isn’t really a safe-jump either after reading your description, cause i’m thinking about it and if i cross their axis right as they have their first available input frame then i know it’s more than 1 frame left in the air. but if i’m understanding it right the other guy still has a chance if he just pauses for 1 extra frame for his auto-correct to send him in the right direction?
Ah, true his Ex tatsu. doesn’t RT usually do more damage? But I guess it has a slight chance of missing and not always working.
Cause I used ryu and I was really surprised how ‘‘fluid’’ all my combo’s went, while with ken It feels kinda stiff at times… Like moves don’t come out, I guess bad timing. But it was piss easy. Plus all the other stuff added to him.
But ken for life babeh : D Although ryu is fun ,cause I can ultra stuff lol.
Hm, but I see.
highlulu:
No problem it’s important to get this cleared up for everyone so that they can learn to fight those match-ups without trying for non-existent safe jump-ins. The placebo effect you mentioned is what I figured was happening (which is a valid way to bait a reversal srk block).
It’s worth highlighting that you can still safe jump-in against Ken’s strong srk so if you are playing a Ken that habitually uses that as anti-air you can get big damage.
Okay, I was just about to come in here to ask a question about safe jump-ins for cross-ups and saw you guys post a whole page about it, but, I don’t completely understand it all. I’ve seen Ken videos where he’ll jump in for the cross-up on characters with a SRK-type ability and instead of the person using it, they choose to block instead. However, in my experience thus far, most of the times I jump in I do get an SRK landed on me. Are these people just not confident in their execution, or is the distance too close for their SRKs to start up in time to beat the MK?
Also, on a slightly related note, what is the best course of action to take to a fireball spamming Ryu? I try to change it up and use FAD, FB, EX FB, or Jumping in to get closer. However, Ken’s FB spam can’t beat Ryu’s, they just come out faster, so I’ll lose that battle eventually. I can’t FAD the whole time because if I get close enough there’s a risk of losing all the buffered life. If I EX FB a Ryu usually sees it and counters with his own, and if I jump in close enough to try to make a counter attack I take a l.DP due to his recovery on FB being so fast. I also have a similar problems with Akumas who get to low health and just stay in the air spamming FB all day.
I agree with you on the first part… I even FORGOT about crossups recently lol… I never used it for some reason anymore, cause I’ve been fighting so many shoryuken type spammers. I try to do single or 2 hit moves now, cause my execution aint baddass either, and they can Sho mash through everything.
I fought the worse scrub ryu ever today… it was SOUL crushing … He ONLY SHORYUKEND AND BLOCKED…ONLY THAT…And he beat my mains Every freaking time… I beat him with spam chars though… Damn that was soul crushing, to see him having no skill, and beating me by Sho spamming (well he basiclly tried to aim it right) the recovery is like none : And Ken has two back hit moves, but sh beats it… Its amazing how someone that only blocks well and SRK, can beat someone who trains…
I felt bad ;-;
But yea I agree with you on the first one… I never crossupped anymore, cause you can Srk it easily lol. But it sometimes clashes if you aim it right, and maybe if you aim it right you can’t SRK? I had times where I couldn’t when someone crossed me up./
But I am doing it more now fo sho.
The second Q,… I just jump, dash through once or twice. And mostly im there… I don’t know. The screen aint that long, they can shoryuken though, but guess bait it?
What you can also do if you’re a bit better, Kara hadoken, or kara focus so you move forward even more. Or F+mk when decent range.
3 words for this issue: bait and punish. i know it kinda sucks dumbing your game down to their level but yeah if they just wanna mash shoryu you need to simply block them and then punish the shit out of them for it. believe me they will get the message sooner or later… that or they will ragequit
Sorry, kinda new to Ken 
Can you explain the Kara in a little more detail than the first post of the general discussion? I guess I understand the Kara throw, just hit HK and throw immediately after? But what about the other Karas?
I really don’t feel like writing an essay, so I’ll try and condense what I’m thinking. You’ll have to create elaborations of these ideas on your own.
Firstly, I believe you’re thinking in the wrong terms. The answer to his fireball spam is not in Kara-Focus, fireballs, and/or jumping over. These are merely tools. The answer lies within your mind.
First, try to understand why one throws fireballs. On their own they don’t really do much damage and you can’t really combo off of a full screen fireball. (Unless you’re fucking Sagat :rolleyes:) No, their use lies in their ability to control space, and in an essence, bait a jump.
If someone is beating you by merely “spamming” fireballs, it’s usually because HE’S IN YOUR FUCKING HEAD! He knows your options of getting around his fireballs, baits and anticipates them, and deals with the situation accordingly.
The solution? Out think him. When he expects a jump, don’t. When he expects a block, jump. So on so forth. One tip, for the Shoto’s mid-screen fireballs are a no-no. If you see a Ryu throw a fireball outside of sweep range that isn’t an EX, jump in on his ass and combo. Know your spacing, and know you opponents options from those ranges.
There is no “Best course of action” to break an opponents fireball strategy. You must take the opportunity that presents itself. Thinking of only one “Best way” will limit you. Looking for an opportunity to Ex.Hado may result in missing a jump-in opportunity. So on so forth. Always be aware of your options and look for them all.
Oh, and fuck Honda >:(
No, I know, I tried to punish. But I didn’t have my fierce Shoryuken in mind at the time. cause I automatically don’t spam that, and his blocking game was good. But now that I think about it, I should have just used my Fierce everytime. Instead, after a shoryuken I tried to F+Mk, or D+Mk hadoken, or grab. But the recovery sometimes seems that good that he could easily shoryuken after.
I won by using characters I suck with instead of my best, but next time I should use his fierce or ex lol.
But yea I won, and no he invited me to a player match, first to 5. I was still surprised seeing him beat me everytime by just blocking and using a shoryuken lol. But I was playing foolish =D
And exile, I probably can’t explain it better then already explained it there. I don’t use the other kara’s apart from throw yet, I just know it would help. But I don’t know them myself :
I’ve been told similar things about baiting and punishing and making your opponent not feel as though they’re in control so it throws off their game, just not in regards to fireball spam. But this should help out a lot against shotos, thanks! ^^
If you start to fall behind in the fireball war just neutral jump over one and it resets.
don’t make me slap you silly man… i’ll do it!
great write up on anti-fireball strategy btw