c.mp s.lk xx
c.mp meaty also combos into c.mp
You have a lot to learn about conditioning. If you’re gonna press a button after c.mp because you think I’m gonna do s.hp I can use another c.mp to catch that button and switch it up with grab. If you want to beat those options you might go for a delay tech. If you will delay tech, c.mp s.hp will CC you.
Julio did a pretty cool corner combo:
s.hp CC run b.mp xx ex fireball, lk.tatsu, ex/hp shoryu
Another Julio bit, cr.mp (blocked) -> st.lk (chain) st.lk seems to work. So there’s that for frametraps up close.
the first is a hit confirm and the second is a meaty. I am talking about frame traps. The purpose of frame traps is to make the opponent push a button between the gaps of your string. If cr mp is the second button in your string it will frame trap the opponent but s lk will whiff.
Thanks for missing the point. You can use conditioning to make any unconventional tactic work. But if it wasn’t unconventional you wouldn’t need conditioning in the first place. A 7 frame gap is too wide to be considered a reliable frame trap.
I was talking about his core weaknesses, you are talking about how you can improve on them. It’s two different things.
Thought you counted c.mp on wakeup my bad.
Its not unconventional at all. Just because an option isn’t failsafe it doesn’t mean its bad. The game is designed to pay off reads like that. Thats why lights have little reward, thats why s.hp is a CC. Its a risk, if your read pays off you get the big reward. Conditioning is part of high level play and having c.mp s.hp is great you just can’t throw it out without a reason.
Also I wasn’t talking about improving on his weakness I was talking about improving on your weakness. Just because c.mp s.hp isn’t a safe option doesn’t mean its a weak option.
With that viewpoint, anything can be strong if you correctly condition your opponent surely? From a neutral perspective though, using that blockstring as a legitimate trap isn’t effective. I could do cr.mp - walk back - pause - st.hk and hell it might work if I condition my opponent but it doesn’t necessarily mean that using that string is something I should be passing on to other players and passing of as a decent option because of it’s scarcity in usages, the frame gap would be far too wide to consider it a valid option it almost all scenarios.
6 frames is a damn big gap, I wouldn’t say it’s a viable tool outside of hard reads.
This is the second time you attempt to move the discussion from the technical to the personal level. This doesn’t help your case any, it only makes you look like an ass.
I was talking about frame traps. Not meaties, not mind games, not reads, just frame traps. What makes a sequence of buttons a frame trap is the gap between those buttons. If that gap beats options by itself, it’s a frame trap. St lp -> st. hp was a frame trap in beta 2 because it would beat any medium button, there was no other condition attached to it. St lp -> st hp had a 6 frames gap in beta 2, in beta 3 it has a 7 frames gap since the st hp startup was increased to 9 frames.
I’ve already said multiple times that you can and should use st hp and st hk in your game, but connecting them is a read and i treat it as such. You can use frame traps to condition your opponent in order to land the buttons you want but that doesn’t make those buttons part of the frame trap, they are still reads.
Not anything is strong enough as a CC to give you that much of a reward, thats why its good conditioning option. You also see people using things as c.mp walk up c.mp to catch delay techs, also a good option as long as you do it with the right reason.
And you’re right, it isn’t a viable tool outside of hard reads but I think that hard reads are gonna be important in this game. Carelessly doing shit because it has little risk is more of a SF4 thing, this game just isn’t designed this way.
You don’t do frame traps because they are mindless and safe, you do them to condition your opponent not to press buttons. The better your frame traps, the better the conditioning. Cr mp -> cr. mp is not such a significant deterrent because you need meter to convert. The fact that it’s the only frame trap you can realistically confirm makes his frame trap game even worse compared to the rest of the cast.
I agree that a pure frame trap to CC is too good of an option, despite the fact that there are characters like Bison that have that option. They could leave st hp at 9 frames, but bring pushback and st mk frame data back to beta 2 levels. This way Ken would have valid option for everything:
Cr mp (confirm to TC1). Blocked? st lp. You can then press st lk to beat light attacks, or st mk to beat/trade with mediums and throws. You can confirm from st lp -> st lk and st mk. When you’ve scared your opponent enough to not press buttons you can attempt to move, dash and throw, etc. When he starts attempts at teching you can incorporate a st hp as well.
cr.mp -> b.mp is a safe frametrap at point blank and you can continue into HP if you think they’ll try and pressure you so long as you have a bar to make it safe if they don’t. You can also do cr.mp -> st.lk x2 if you’re point blank.
Also, Bison has a 5f gap at best into his st.hk CCH, so it’s not particularly scary unless you’re mashing. That’s with the fastest CCH and the most plus you can get off a blocked non-meaty grounded normal as well. CCH are all about stuffing and conditioning.
cr mp -> b mp is indeed hit confirmable but if they block your pressure ends. In the current version where you can’t press a third button anyway it’s not such a bad option, but it’s not ideal either.
cr. mp -> st lk x2 does not work if they block, the 2nd s lk will whiff, it connected in Julio’s case because Ricky pressed something. st lk x2 is also NOT a chain as you seem to think.
Bison’s CC frametrap is pretty valid as it beats all medium and heavy buttons and it’s even plus on block. In the context of the game, most medium and heavy frame traps do lose to lights. Space them well though and your opponent has to chose between pressing a medium button or nothing.
If you’re trying to break out of a frametrap with a medium you’re just inviting trouble though. Either you’re in a range where a jab will connect or you don’t have much of a reason to press a button.
Does cr.mp (blocked) -> st.lp -> cr.mp all connect on block? Since if the st.lp counterhits you can confirm it into a tatsu off the cr.mp.
The reason to press a medium button is to contest the space or to take the frame advantage yourself. A frame trap that dissuades that is a useful tool.
cr.mp (blocked) -> st.lp -> cr.mp doesn’t connect on block, the 2nd cr mp will whiff.
Gotcha. So basically if you don’t think the st.lp will CH you can do cr.mk (canceled into a fireball if you wish) as it’s reasonably tight at 4f.
In CVS2 people could always just roll or RC through your projectiles any way. Plenty of level 2 and 3 supers that will blow them up too plus parry/JD. It’s amazing that they are still somewhat useful despite all that stuff. It’s just at the absolute highest level of play the best characters tend to be the ones that don’t rely on fireballs much. The game is mainly normals fighting normals with an occasional RC’d special.
If you want me to be honest Julio was still doing bad combo’s from cr. MP -> st. LK. He constantly combo’d into FP SRK from cr. MP -> st. LK which is a bad option. You should always do MK, EX tatsu, or EX SRK to keep the pressure unless FP SRK will get the kill. You also get better corner carry and if they neutral tech from some of those options you get ambiguous options and if they backroll you can safe jump them midscreen. FP SRK is ok in the corner, but anywhere else it is a bad option.
st. LK->st.LK has a 5f gap on block so will lose to medium buttons and only combo’d because the first st. LK was CH which made it work. What julio did that made the second one connect was cr. MP (take a step forward) -> st. LK->st.LK. st. LK does not chain into a second st. LK. That sequence only worked because noticing a pause Ricki pressed buttons and the st. LK counter-hit him. Had Julio done a frame tight sequence Ricki wouldn’t have seen a pause and wouldn’t have pressed buttons. Had Ricki just mashed after the cr. MP he would have won.
We have been over this Ken’s frame data combined with his abnormal push back makes most of his shit fairly bad or lackluster. He needs some adjustments on that end or they need to make his range game better. Fighting Karin in particular without being scary up close and losing the neutral is not going to be fun. He still does have some stuff going for him and Julio wasn’t even bringing out the most of that. Julio though is the only one I’ve seen on stream do st. RH-> confirm VTC so he still was the best Ken on stream so far without question.
Did the matches get posted anywhere? I’d like to watch over all of them and try and spot any beta 4 changes, I haven’t had any playtime with it yet so I’ve had 0 chance to try things out. I’m prepared for the worst.
It’s all up on Team Spooky’s youtube.
The version they used was the same as PSX aka beta 3. Beta 4 changes don’t have much footage and only had the really early AM stress test.
Actually did anyone test if you link LK Tatsu from c.MP do you get both hits or just one? Assuming best possible spacing.