Ken G'eneral Discussion Thread (Frame Data, Techniques, Combos, and etc.)

Classic Fighting Games Ultra Street Fighter IV
241

Hi G77,

In my opinion, I dont think its a great change to this match up the fact that Ryu cant FADC his HP SRK. Cause the most common punish situations for Ken land a combo finishing with tatsu is using HK one that gives him -2 on hit or the EX that gives him +1 as you know. Ryu’s MP SRK has 4 frames on startup and 6 frames of invincibility I think. What is the same properties of Ken’s MP SRK. The most invincible one. Ken’s HP SRK is faster but less invincible, just 4 frames I think. So, for me, it still a guess situation. Not to mention the fact the Ryu’s EX SRK is the most invincible on this matchup. I think its 16 frames of invicibility. And Ken’s one is 11 frames, correct me if I’m wrong. (That’s what happen when you go for a cheap damage against a Ryu on wake up using EX SRK and get bet by his EX SRK… In the past, happened a lot with me… ^ ^)

Facing shotos in generally, the best thing to do is a late crouch tech. Its the most safe option in my opinion. You cant get damage from it, unless youre facing random Ryus that dont know the properties of Ken’s tatsu. So sometimes they will do random SRKs or Ultras II and with a crouch tech you’ll block anything he does and Ken is able to get a full punish when Ryu lands or escape from a throw attempt.

But if you are playing with a great momentum, you’re feeling yourself, I think you can risk sometimes do a MP SRK. Just if you’re in advantage on the match and almost getting a stun, or if you made a mind game before that made you opponent think that you’re a solid player and dont mash anything, he will be caught by surprise with a random SRK from you. And “respect” you more. It sounds a little crazy, but works sometimes.

For me the best option for sure is to do a late crouch tech. The best situation is to get neutral. And after a HK tatsu its easier to do a delayed crouch tech because of the -2 on hit. Its almost automatic when you get the right time after a little practice. If you get a tech, nobody gets damage, but you still on Ryu’s face, what is a good thing, considering the fact that he is a powerful zoning character.

Just to mention, now in AE 2012, I think this matchup still in Ryu’s favor. 6-4. Daigo x Momochi back in time, on the Super version, playing the Gods Garden Online represents very well the way I see the 2 characters at the maximum potential.

Peace

242

I think the most underutilized route in this situation is the nj x-up tatsu after a tatsu combo. Really hard move to perfect from both sides, but I have only had a handful of people block it legit. Some people just instinctively backdash and get away… I think I’ve even crossed up dps with it. Not only an excellent way to lead into another combo(which could very well dizzy him), but it works well when you mix in the backdash as G77 brought up, and then the threat of deceptive frontal nj attacks, dp fadc, etc.

243

Neutral jump cross-up tatsu is a solid follow-up against shotos, but not something you’d want to try against Chun. You will eat neutral j. fp juggle into U2 for your trouble.

As for backdashes, I’d have to double-check the frame data, but is it possible for Ryu to punish backdash with raw U1?

244

I think everyone is missing the point.

Firstly, HK tatsu leaves Ken at -1 not -2. Ken’s LK tatsu gives him -2 and a great deal more spacing.

Secondly, I’m not talking about continuing the pressure after the tatsu combo, I’m highlighting how we now have a better chance of escaping the guessing game against Ryu as he will undoubtedly try to use his MP DP and FADC to safety where he used to use his fierce DP. The MP DP cannot catch Ken’s backdash and so regardless of how many bars Ryu has, he can’t FADC a whiffed DP.

Thirdly, if your shoto opponent tries a reversal DP after a tatsu combo your neutral jump tatsu is gonna get fucked up while your still in your jump animation. In most cases, this puts Ken in a free juggle state and is NOT a good idea. It doesn’t avoid the majority of DP’s at all and thus is just as much a gamble as a cr.lk.

Don’t get me wrong, it’s a valid mix-up, but to assume it’s a safe follow up after a tatsu combo is straight wrong.

Lastly, of course Ryu could catch the backdash with raw U1, but not on reaction. Only if they’re mashing it during their hitstun…

Peace,

G.

245

Oh, I can see now. I’ve always thought that HK tatsu leaves Ken at -2. My bad. Against characters that have “shoryuken moves” I think neutral jump isnt a good option too. So, if Ryu’s MP SRK cant catch Ken’s backdash (I didnt know that) the guessin game really changes. But escape the guessin game will never happen, youre in Ryu’s face, too many things could happen. I dont think that perform a backdash after HK tatsu combo is a good choice too. Only against grapplers or others exceptions. Ryu’s ultra II is an excelent backdash punisher, and i think his EX SRK get Ken too (not sure), so I personally prefer to be neutral at first, or act random sometimes. And never neutral jump against Ryu in this situation.

Peace

246

what about delayed crouch tech into downback + jab+ HK (Os sweep)? not sure why people go for srk often when they get hit by any type of tatsu combo

247

This is my point.

Ryu now needs to burn 3 meters to safely EX DP and FADC after a tatsu combo now. Yes, he can still catch Ken with his fierce DP, but that now loses to block big style as it’s un FADC’able.

Delayed crouch techs are still the solid approach in general but I’m talking about the Ryu match in complete isolation.

Peace,

G.

248

we get it

249

Good info G’, definitely going to put this to use asap. I’m sure I’ll face some ryu’s this Saturday at Texas Bar Fights 8. Yay new technology~.

250

Ryu - Ken is 5-5 in this version. There has been enough changes to both characters to balance the match up.

As a Ryu player; Keeping Ken out is VERY hard (Focus dash to Kara SRK, Kara Air Tarsus) and his combos or backwards throw can carry opponents to the corner fast which is very bad for Ryu.

You can’t compare super Ken and Super Ryu. Super Ryu can easily get away and go back to controlling space. Without an escape tatsu Ryu can’t change the positioning in the match as easy

Ever since the lost of FADC on HP SRK I have not once thought of using it on a Ken at the end of the ex tatsu

251

This. Thank you.

252

Kind of a random thought but has to do with utilizing footsies for those that have a hard time whiff punishing. It can pretty much be applied to any character with good movement and normals.

If your opponents whiffing normals but you can’t whiff punish, the mix-up from footsies would be to advance forward by walking or sometimes dashing for characters with good dashes.
[LIST]
[]If your opponent likes to push buttons as you’re walking, counter-poke the start-up of the moves they like to use(pay close attention to spacing for this).
[]If your opponent is passive, go for a Kara throw since they’re not pushing buttons. Stagger a bit to keep them on edge and afraid to tech the throw.
[*]If you can’t Kara throw or need something else to keep them on edge after conditioning them to not push buttons, mix in a few overheads.
[/LIST]
Note: Be wary of people baiting you to walk forward by whiffing light attacks, they can usually poke you by the time you’re aware that they pushed a button but you haven’t identified what button they’ve pressed. People usually do this when they have your rhythm for walking backwards and use the light to keep you from moving backwards by using proximity block.

Just trying to help people improve their fundamentals since their hasn’t been much new technology for Ken lately.

I still have a few more things to share about the neutral game and Ken’s normals but don’t really have the time to write them, so, maybe I’ll elaborate on how to use step-kick with the purpose of making the opponent weary of poking and moving forward in the future? Real life is really starting to kick in so I don’t know if I’ll ever get to them, hopefully someone else can elaborate Ken’s footsies more if I can’t.

253

I can’t seem to find a list for bnb/punish combos with Ken. Can anyone point me to them please :confused:

254

Read the 1st post of this thread

255

There’s shitton of combos, I just want a few bnbs and a few of the best punishes. If there no such list just say so.

256

I was thinking about starting a thread for a practical combo guide and weighing which combos have the most damage vs. the most utility, but I figure might as well start the conversation here.

PRACTICAL COMBO GUIDE (AE 2012)

BnBs for crouching opponents
C.LK > C.LP > C.LP xx EX/HP Shory***
C.LK xx C.LP > EX/HP Shory* (on characters with high pushback/small hit boxes, like Sakura)*
C.LP > C.HP xx EX/HP Shory (best damage, 1-frame link, also great on high pushback/small hit box characters)

BnBs for standing opponents
C.LK > C.LP > CS.LP > C.MK xx EX Tatsu (easy hit confirm)*
C.LK > CS.LP > C.MK xx EX/HK Tatsu (when far, also for high pushback/small hit box characters)*
C.LK > CS.LP > C.HP xx EX/HK Shory *(**when close, *best damage)

Poke into knockdown
C.MK xx HP Hado > EX FADC > HP Shory (easy, when close)
C.MK xx HP Hado > EX FADC > C.HP xx HP Shory (best damage, when close)
C.MK xx HP Hado > EX FADC > C.HK (when far / for untechable knockdown)

Frame Traps / Block strings
C.LK > C.LP > CS.LP > C.MK xx Hado (hand-in-hand with standing BnB)*
C.LK > C.LP > C.MP/MK xx Hado
C.LP > C.HP xx Hado (hand-in-hand with crouching BnB)
F.MK > C.LP / C.MP*
F.MK > HP Shory (excellent frame trap)*
C.LK > C.LP > FS.MP > cMK xx Hado
C.LK > C.LP > FS.MP > cHK (excellent frame trap)**

Punishes
[Rule of Thumb: After a Target Combo or CS.HK, use EX/HK Tatsu for damage and EX/HP Shory for knockdown]
CS.HK xx Shory / Tatsu (whiff punish)
J.HK > CS.HK xx Shory / Tatsu (quick dizzy punish)
FADC3 > CS.HK xx Shory / Tatsu (best non-corner punish for damage)
J.HK > CS.HK xx LP Shory > EX Shory (best corner punish for damage with 1 meter)**

Super / Ultra
HP Shory > EX FADC > Ultra 1*
J.HK > CS.HK xx Super*
J.HK > CS.HK xx MP Shory xx Super (best super punish for damage)**
J.HK > CS.HK xx MP Shory xx Super > Ultra 1 (best super+ultra punish for damage, corner only)

These are some easy, high damage combos you can do, regardless of counter hit. It’s quite a few, but most of them overlap. If you stick with the most basic ones (*), you’ll be fine in almost any situation. The ones that are slightly more advanced but you’ll definitely want to learn (**) will help you churn out some massive damage.

Some other curious things, such as cross ups and option selects:
[LIST]
[]Cross up with Air Tatsu to bait wake-up shorys.
[]Following up J.MK with Target Combo > Shory / Tatsu may have poor utility (baiting or mixing up throws) compared to a BnB / block string, but is excellent for damage.
[]J.LK crossup in the corner with some characters (such as Ryu) can result in a fake cross up, while J.MK will be a definite cross up. Definitely a great tool to use.
[]Against back-dashers, teleporters, and Bison:
[LIST]
[]J.HP with OS Tatsu (for back-dash or teleport) or with OS Shory (for wake-up EX Psycho Crusher and some other wake-up moves) is an exceptional tool. Cody, Rose, Chunli, Dictator, and Dhalsim are big names that come to mind.
[]For those with 3-frame wakeups, mixing in safe-jumps and air-tatsu crossups can make it scary.
[/LIST]
[/LIST]

257

Could you or anyone else happen to know all of Ken’s LINKING normal [combos], would you please?

258

Most of the ones matchboxmatt just posted are link combos.

259

All links are denoted by “>”, while all cancels are denoted by “xx”. Basically any string of normals, most of which are listed by the OP, are links. The ones I listed are typically the most practical ones you would use.

260

^Ok, Thanks fellas.