been trying to find this for a minute now. what is the input for jins astral finish?
You can throw after the jump cancel in the BnB air combo listed on Butters’ opening post. j.B j.C JC Throw. In training mode if the timing is right I’ve gotten a red combo, not a grayed out one, after the air drive fireball (throws three swords that freeze the opponent). I’ve also seen it done a few times in real matches by people far better than me and landing a red combo from it. I’m guessing Butters and others in the forum can give you a better example/use for an air throw than that, but that’s at least one combo into throw example however useful/useless it is.
Re-reading my post some of the intended sarcasm at the scrub Akuma comment is essentially not there at all given the haste I posted it, but what I meant to convey is that that was the exception not the rule. I’m definitely not playing Jin like he’s Honda or Guile.
When I played Guilty Gear (XX, Isuka, and/or Accent Core) it was sporadic, few and far between, let alone against other people. I rarely, if ever outside of training mode to be honest, saw the negative penalty for either me or who I was playing against. Playing Jin now I’ve seen it a few times, but out of the 70 or so matches I’ve played now online those two particular cases probably represent every time I’ve seen it in BB outside of training mode as well.
That said if back dashing and walking backwards contribute to getting a negative penalty then it makes sense in the Tao match where I got it in round one, Tao got it in round two, and then Tao almost got it in round three as well. The Arakune example, meh, still not sure why I got it that round but his teleport always moved him forward from one side of the screen to another. If that’s all it takes more power to the character design and design philosophy of the penalty system I guess given how I’m nitpicking two matches out of seventy or so.
720 Drive. Same as Tager Buster Super, Zangeif or T.Hawk’s super in Super Turbo, etc. If the move is not on your command list have you beat arcade mode with Jin? If not you need to beat arcade mode with Jin to be able to unlock the move, same as say beating arcade mode with Rachel or Ragna to unlock their Unlimited Forms. Everyone else gets their Astral Finish if they do not have an Unlimited Form.
Thanks. As for throws in combos, it basically comes down to this: If you can jump cancel or dash cancel a move, then just throw immediately after the cancel. Or, throw once you freeze them. Don’t throw during combos too much, though. They have more time to tech out.
Double 360 D.
So, 3214789632147896D.
It’s pretty dumb, considering it’s non-bufferable.
You can use it after a throw, plenty of time to spin it out and hope they don’t mash out ice and jump if you’re late with the input. Whether you can truly make it unblockable/inescapable after a throw I’m not sure, but given the quality of play online you can probably catch more than a few people with it from time to time.
was thinking about maybe a really good counter hit with 623B or A and try and do the astral when they land? Almost seems like a very SFIV thing to do though lol
Alright, thanks for the advice. I think my problem with doing it before was that I was using a high jump cancel instead of a normal one, and it seems like you can’t use a throw in a combo if you used a high jump cancel.
You sacrifice too much damage if you throw in the middle of a combo. Good players will break the ice before you can land another combo. You only want to use throws as part of your mix up game as Jin has a shitty mix up game to begin with. He has 3 overheads 2 of which are jumping attacks and the 1 ground attack is horrendously slow and easy to read plus it can only be chained from 2A. So an opponent can block low and be reasonably safe from your block strings hence why you need to incorporate throws to catch them off guard. The beauty is that you can guarantee at least 1.8K damage from a throw and 2.8k if they are in the corner. All of these options lands a knock down and sets you up for oki games. Not too shabby coming off a throw.
I’ve been reviewing the Buppa vs Ren match vid that was posted earlier I’m going to break down that vid and point out some cool techniques. The video link is below you can find a higher quality version on nico video on a previous page but I wanted to see less zawa zawa zawa on the screen so I went with the youtube version.
[media=youtube]GIu4KwXApA8[/media]
The skill level between the 2 is very noticeable and though Ren is a pretty good Jin player he just can’t compete with Buppa at all. I’m surprised at the stuff Ren fell for, considering he knows what Jin is capable of. I mean he fell for a corner frame trap B Fubuki and got punished for it severly he should have saw that coming but I guess things change when you are in the heat of the moment.
0:16 Good follow up to CH 6B as a wierd anti-air. The air follow up should be the new standard air combo to use. As I’ve said before it will deal the most damage in most scenarios unless you are able to land after a freeze to follow up with 5C, jB,jC,jD,B Ice Car.
0:20 standard use of 2B for Oki in case Ren tech rolled back.
0:31 Buppa being pretty confident that 6A overhead was going to hit and capitilizes with standard follow up combo. This deals a solid 2.9+k damage but odd that he didn’t finish the combo and opts to go for pressure with 236D.
0:37 excellent corner bait frame trap with B Fubuki.
1:00 standard ground combo that everyone should have mastered and I think is the most damaging combo Jin has without the use of Heat that can be done anywhere on the screen.
1:10 Ren opts to end the standard ground combo with A Ice Car to reset the match with a dash throw but Buppa’s techs the throw. Either he saw that coming a mile away or has good enough reactions. A good mix up option but has huge risks to it. You sacrifie extra damage, confirmed knockdown, and oki games in favor of a potential reset that would have done more damage and confirmed a knockdown into oki as well.
1:35 Buppa Baits the IAD and punishes with A/B Fubuki CH into Ice Wave Super for the win.
1:30 Bupaa goes into 3C, A/B/C? Ice Car, Rapid Cancel, j.D into standard air combo. For the love of god I could not get this in training mode. I’m wondering if it’s character specific. Anyone else spot anything special with landing this? I wasn’t testing this on Jin and I can’t seem to remember how I used as a training dummy.
1:44 Round 2 we get a nice exchange of zoning techinques but I think Buppa took a risk at 1:47 with his 5C, 5D string there as the 5D could have been IB’d and maybe punished (?). I guess the distance was right to avoid a punish but I think he wouldn’t have gotten away with that with certain characters. Very good use of 5D pokes from both players here. Check their spacing with back dashes and air dashes to set the right poking distance with 5D.
2:08 Buppa attempts at a reset pressure mix up by opting to premature end his combo and go into a j.B, j.C, land, dash 5B->options. Alternatively, 2B could have been used as well. The j.B, j.C forces Ren to block high as these are overheads which gives him time to attempt to psych out with either 2B low hit into standard combo or frame traps with 5B. From the 5B Buppa has a ton of options to work with to apply pressure. He could have baited for a CH Fubuki into a combo. Done 5C into IAD j.B, j.C into another block string for more pressure. 6B to go over low attacks and CH into combo or if blocked done another block string. He could have IAD after the 5B into air 236D for an overhead and potential cross up. Here he opts to do 3C lands it surprisingly and goes into a standard combo string but it looks like he botched the end of the combo and resorted to pressuring with 236D which has several follow ups as well but I wonder about the follow ups with that.
Ren started abusing air dashes in hopes to what I can assume for favorable position or to counter a 5D but ate a Fubuki instead.
2:40 shows what could have happened if you IB 5C, 5D. I guess at that distance you don’t risk a CH from Jin from normals (maybe B/C Ice Car for punish?) but I think it leaves you in an unfavorable position as the opponent has recovered faster and can probably apply a pressure string. There’s probably several characters who can punish Jin after IB 5C,5D.
At 3:03 Buppa does an amazing cross up technique using air 236D. It was a IAD j.B, j.C, 5B (1 hit), IAD 236D. The key thing to remember is the IAD goes over the opponent so they are forced to switch their block and then air 236D pushes you back on the other side switching their block once again. They have to block high for the Ice Swords and keep in mind what direction they need to block. Absolutely sick and he follows it up with a 2nd attempt for a dash in throw but botches the spacing of the throw due to barrier guard and eats a 623D. Although the attempt was botched it’s another cross up that Jin has in his arsenal. Good stuff, imo.
3:26 Ren botches the combo but ends with a safe option of cancelling j.D with air Ice Sword.
3:40 Buppa does a nice fake out mix up by ending the standard ground combo early into 2B, 5C, B Fubuki, 5C, 6C, 6D combo that sets up for C Ice Sword Oki. D Ice Sword looks like a decent pressure tactic but I wonder what options you really have with it. The most common thing to do would be attempt a throw if they are blocking on the ground but on high level play everyone is going to expect that and tech out. If they are block on the ground you can try j.B/j.C overhead or 6A overhead and use the Ice Sword as a way to mask it or spot the whole in their guard and 2B, 3C into another combo/pressure string. If they block in the air I don’t think air throw is an option depending on how low to the ground they are. j.B, j.C will be guarded automatically and you have nothing to hit them from below. I doubt C Fubuki can go underneath them and the recovery on it if you are wrong is enough to cost you the match.
I’ll probably go over Jin’s block strings and pressure games later on.
VERY nice post, Killey.
You know, I like to think I’ve got a good beginner’s Jin guide with “Teach me, Mr. Butters!”
I think “Teach me, Mr. Killey!” would be a great advanced Jin guide. (I’m still trying to nail Jin’s pressure and corner game, personally)
I can dissect the gameplay but I still have issues creating those pressure strings myself. I still have a lot of work left in my Jin and it’s just going to come with time and more matches. I can practice them all I want but without doing them on the fly in the match it really doesn’t matter.
Yeah, I guess all we can do is keep on playing until it comes naturally. I occasionally play against my friend (one of the top Jin’s in the country), and I’m getting blown away by his relentless pressure and unforgiving corner game. Not frustrated, though. When I can keep up with him, I’ll know I’m legitimately good with Jin.
Good analyst of the match.
I disagree with your criticism of Ren though. That B Fubuki was very risky of Buppa especially if blocked, I believe he wouldn’t have enough meter to RC. 3C is also very punishable by itself. So, basically Ren was taking a 50/50 Buppa wouldn’t cancel that 3C into a special and he guessed wrong. Ren also beat Buppa in a first to 2, 2 rounds to 0 in their latest match. He can definitely compete with Buppa or at least, he’s leveled up quite a bit after that.
As for the ice car RC j.D, it works with A and B version with A version being easier. Works on everybody but Carl but basically you have RC ice car as soon as you make contact.
can some1 go over a block string or at least post 1
You wouldn’t happen to have a link to their latest match would you? Also, I think Buppa took a break from the game but I think Ren probably has levelled up since this video. This match is pretty old as well so no surprise there. I think Ren is sitting as the top Jin player on X-Box Live rigt now if I’m not mistaken.
3C is unsafe by itself which is why it’s good bait for A/B Fubuki CH’s but he could have done A Ice Car for safety (provided it didn’t get IB’d) and maybe 236A/B but I think 2B probably could have punished or traded I’ll need to look up the frame data of the 2.
Also, tested the RC Ice Car into j.D and yea the timing isn’t particularly strict and I was able to pull it off on Jin with no issues. Not sure if I really want to expend 50 heat to extend a combo for maybe 2.3k damage. Nice flashy combo and I think only worth using if you want to finish off your opponent or force them into the corner for pressure.
Got some nice matches with a bunch of SRK people and while I did well I was pretty pissed at my own lack of good pressure. I know the pressure strings yet I’m not doing them due to habits I have from when the game came out. It’s so irritating that I recall what to do after the match is done. In other news I have excellent tips on dealing with Arakune that I will post later today.
no 1???
[media=youtube]ByVkICct-vc[/media]
Here is their latest recorded match. It starts around 8:10.
That would be great, maybe you could update the front page, or create a new topic with beginner and advanced guides for Jin.
It’s been a while sense my last post. I’ve been working on all that stuff you told me to Killey, working on the bnbs and being more aggressive. I spent the weekend in training mode trying to get them down. I still need to work on my execution online… But here’s a few matches from the past couple of days.
[media=youtube]CV-k3O87LVE[/media] - This one’s against a throw happy Tao and glaring problem I see myself is my inability to tech them…
[media=youtube]kWuXyOqYdXM[/media] - Against an Arakune. I played really well in this one but was my strategy right or was this just not a very good Kune?
[media=youtube]7GT4EpfhBY8[/media] - Finally against a good Carl. I fought this guy twice before and he crushed me but this time I started to figure the match out. I missed an ice car escape opportunity at the end and lost.
Where should I go from here? Do I just need more practice online?
Also awesome analysis of the Buppa fight Killey:tup: I learned some good information on oki games and frame traps.
Thanks for the link to the vid. I didn’t notice anything different between the 2 but it looks like Ren was more familiar with the match up and the way Buppa plays. Buppa’s game didn’t look off at all and Ren didn’t do anything really different. Both were really standard high level Jin’s so it seemed more like who got psyched out first. I think at that level is more about the mind games then anything else. Anways, I’ll dissect this match up as well.
[media=youtube]ByVkICct-vc[/media]
Fight starts at 8:10. I don’t claim that I know what each player is thinking but I can only hazard a guess base on how the match played out.
Ren opts to start with standard opening move of back dash then try to zone with 5D. Buppa opts to walk back and observe the opponent. Sees the back dash and decides to IAD j.B, j.C, gets the CH and then goes into the most damaging ground combo Jin has. However, instead of finishing it off he opts to do a reset/mind game at 8:23. Instead of finishing the combo with j.B, j.C, j.D, B Ice Car he does j.B, j.A whiff, j.B (this is something new to me. I assume he used the j.A to cancel the recovery of j.B so he could do another j.B) into 5B options. This makes no sense to me though as by default Ren is going to block high and the 5B is going to get blocked 90% of the time anyways. Ren doesn’t need to panic at all in these situations as the pressure string is not a threat. To me it would seem better to use the j.A cancel to land then 2B for hi/low mix up. I don’t know if he was trying to bait into a Fubuki again but it was an odd play. I think he might have been trying to do 5B into options and got countered for it. I almost think this was a misplay on Buppa’s part but if someone has better insight on this please enlighten me.
8:35 Ren lands a CH 5C and goes into 2D. I did not know this was possible but again not sure why Ren didn’t do 6C, 2B for more damage. Distance seemed right for it. Anyways, he does a standard air combo instead of doing a ground combo to get different oki options.
8:49 notice what Ren does here. He opted to force Buppa into the corner with 214D which is fine then runs in and throws a 5B in case Buppa decides to tech roll forwards or neutral techs. When he notices it whiffed he immediately jumps back with a barrier guard to bait out Fubuki’s then begins to zone Buppa to keep him in the corner without the use of pressure strings where he baits him into a Fubuki. Zones with 5D then dash cancels into barrier block since anything after 5D dash cancel leaves you at 0f advantage.
8:59 Ren stops his combo and does a double jump to try to bait a burst. Buppa doesn’t fall for it and does a B Fubuki but whiffs and eats a j.B CH and would have gotten combo’d again had he not bursted.
9:05 Buppa loves to do those C Fubuki Rapid Cancels but it’s definitely safer than D Fubuki’s.
Buppa does a good job battling back and came close to winning the round but ultimately loses to the mighty Fubuki. I tell you guys Fubuki is too good provided you don’t abuse it.
9:28 Round 2 and again both players opt to open up with the same thing they did in round 1 except Ren learns not to 5D and opts to rush and dash cancel with Barrier Guard. Buppa opts not to air dash as he most likely figured Ren wouldn’t fall for the same tactic twice and he was right.
9:31 Buppa shows us his impressive IB skills and IB’s Ren’s j.B and punishes with his own j.B into ground combo.
9:37 Ren IB’s Buppa’s j.B, j.C and probably mistimed the IB on Buppa’s Fubuki or wasn’t anticipating on that. However, note that Fubuki needs to be Barrier Blocked or IB in the air.
9:48 Buppa IB’s j.C and attempts to counter with C Fubuki as Ren appears to be overcommiting his rush down. Ren surprising does his own C Fubuki and the 2 clash at 9:48. Ren having the faster reaction cancels his C Fubuki into 5C and nails the CH.
From here we see less reset options from Buppa and he’s going for confirmed damage/knock downs.
10:10 Buppa does his standard block string into B/C Ice Car Rapid Cancel into 2B for the mix up. Lands it the ndoes 5C->combo.
10:18 Buppa opts for high risk with 6A overhead and gets punished for it. Not sure why he didn’t finish the combo with 5B, 5C, 3C 236C oki. I contribute his loss of this round to this risk. I don’t blame him for it as we all would have been cheering had he landed it into C Mash combo for the victory.
Now it’s back to zoning tactics and whoever could out zone the other into a freeze would have won. Very close match and could have gone either way in both rounds.
Overall, Buppa was being more aggressive and took more risks than usual. Ren played a very solid Jin taking minimal risks and while not landing more damage with potential resets did a good job reading into Buppa and essentially came out on top.
I’m going to start reviewing Jin’s pressure options. Anyone is free to add to this. Part of a good Jin pressure is understand what gatlings together and what are his safe options.
Within 5C range we enter Jin’s zoning game. 5C and 5D are his best pokes but have slow startup and get be punished when anticipated. His j.B is a great zoning tool as well and is a good air-to-air move. You primarily want to use these tools to pressure your opponent into doing something big to get in close to you if that’s their game. Use these tools as part of your psych game and bait them into a Fubuki. Landing a Fubuki allows Jin to approach his opponent where we can get them into his pressure strings. Alternatively, 5D dash cancel into 2A is also another way to get in close for pressure; however, dash cancel after 5D leaves you at -1f so the next move you do will most likely get beat out. Most people DC 5D into 2A but 2A has a 7f startup so you want to poke with 5D at max distance if you want to get in close with a DC 2A rush anything closer than max distance and you’ll most likely get CH punished. You can dash cancel into guard but you lose momentum by doing this but you can try to bait a Fubuki with this if your opponent decides to jump back and neglects to Barrier Block or IB.
Once you are in you have some tools for pressure. I will say that Jin’s pressure game is pretty poor and has bad hi/low mix ups in comparison to others in the cast. He has a tendancy to rely on mixing in throws to make his pressure game effective but once your opponent starts reading into this you lose a part of his pressure game. The loss of momentum if your opponent throw techs is pretty great and is not something you want happening despite being at 0f after a throw tech. This is exactly why high level matches don’t incorporate too many throws into their pressure games.
Jin has 4 overhead moves:
6A - Can only be chained off a 2A and is extremely slow to come out and easily counterable and punishable on whiff/block. You rarely want to throw this out there. Maybe once in a match depending on how you ready your opponent.
j.B - Has wide horiztonal range and big hit boxes. Combo’s into j.C and can be delayed for all sorts of fun mind games. Jump canceable into itself as well.
j.C - Similar deal as j.B but has limited range. Only combos into j.D or a special. Jump canceable as well.
j.A - Really small hit box and not very useful as an overhead by itself. Seen it used in block strings to keep the opponent honest in their blocking. Can be used to cancel the recovery on j.B for reset options. Also good air-to-air move in close proximity.
As you can see his overhead options are weak so opponents can block low and be relatively safe from Jin. IAD or a low air dash into j.B/j.C are usually his means of doing overheads without any assistance.
Jin only has 2 low attacks:
2B - comes out in 9 frames and can be gatling into a lot of things. It’s a safe low attack to do. Usually want to do this after landing from a j.B/j.C.
3C - knocks down when it connects and can be combo’d into 2B. Very unsafe on block and can only be special cancelled or jump cancelled.
So this is what we have to work with for Jin’s hi/low mix up games. Not very comforting I know. Hence why aggressive players will go for throws in their pressures.
Pressure Options 1:
2A, 2B, 5C, 3C ->
from here Jin can do the following
- IAD 236D - You are looking for a cross up at this point
- 214A - Unsafe on high level play as it can be IB’d and punished
- Rapid Cancel after 214A/B/C
—>2B into another pressure string
—>air dash j.B, j.C for overhead options - j.B/j.C - Overhead options
- jump back and defend - safety
- TK 236A/B/C/D
- 623A/B/C/D AKA Fubuki - baiting out punishable moves into a DP that on CH will combo in the corner.
Not the best pressure string to use and I would use this if I had the opponent in the corner.
Pressure Options 2:
5B (2 hits) - The 2nd hit of 5B sucks in your opponent to you and leaves on 0f when blocked. It’s a frame trap for opponents who want to tech roll behind you as the 2nd hit of 5B will hit them from behind. The 2nd hit of 5B can be IB’d and punished so mix it up a little. 5B is one of his better pressure options but Barrier Guards ruin the distance. From 5B we have these options:
- 5B x N - don’t expect this to work really well your opponent can barrier guard to push you away at best you want to do 2 of these.
- Throw - that’s right 5B is throw chainable but don’t use this too often. Too easy to tech out of the throw on high level play and you’ve lost all momentum.
- A/B/C/D Fubuki - Use the frame trap to bait out moves that can be punished with Fubuki and nail a CH.
- 6B - the hop that looks like it’s an overhead but it’s not. Goes over low moves and combos on normal hit and CH. CH will lead into an air combo. Careful how many times you throw this out as your opponent can do a fast normal that hits high and tag you out of the air or even counter air throw you. It’s a good way to get back in when you’ve been pushed out with barrier guard. Can be special cancelled with 236A/B/C/D. Leaves you at 0f on block so no distinct advantage when you land. This is why I like to do a 2nd 6B on occassion as fast moves for most characters will hit low giving you a CH as 6B goes over it.
- IAD Air 236D
- IAD j.D - cross up but terribly unsafe when blocked/whiffed. Crouching opponent are harder to hit with this. Be ready to Rapid Cancel if you botch this.
- j.B/j.C - Overhead option and you can jump cancel them into j.B, j.C for mind games. Doing a late j.B will be a cross up.
- 5C or delay after 5B and any C move - standard gatling but gives you safe options.
------>5D - standard block string that leaves you relatively safe unless your opponent IB’s it. You could dash cancel into 2A but I’ve gone through the pros and cons of that.
------>IAD j.B, j.C - overhead options and gets you in close. You can go back into 5B after j.C
------>3C - go back to pressure string 1 to see what you can do for follow ups.
Honestly, all of his pressures strings are just variations of these enders. Once you get knock downs you can start doing oki games. In the corner you have pressure options with 236D or 236C (on oki) and then going into one of those pressure options/mix ups or add in a throw once in a while.
Example of Corner pressure:
2A, 2B, 5C, IAD j.B, j.C, land, 5B, 6B, j.B, j.A, land, 2B, 5B, 6B, 2A, dash, throw etc…
You obviously have to make modifications depending on whether your opponent barrier blocks or not. The hard part is being creative with the mix up and see what will work on your opponent. You want to be constantly looking at your opponents reactions. Perhaps you want to end with 3C and then try to bait into a Fubuki.
Few corrections I have to make
-5D dash cancel is -1 frames not 0. Dash in 2A should be sparingly used against a person familiar with Jin
-5B does not have any frame advantage. You’re at neutral frames.
-3C can not be jump canceled.
The big thing I think that needs to be happen with Jin’s pressure is have enough frame traps to keep the opponent honest.
Here’s 2 to add on to the list.
-2A slight delay 2B-this is a very nifty frame trap that will keep your opponents honest about 2A throw or 2A 6A
-5B(2hits), 2C - Use this keep them hitting you out of 5B 5B. You get a 6C/5D off CH 2C. If 2C is blocked you can jump cancel or 5D for safety.