ST-related comment reposted to: http://forums.shoryuken.com/showthread.php?t=97281
I would like to apologize to VF fans for going on a tangent in this topic.
It’s easy to bitch about people not playing VF on this side of the Pacific, but it’s pretty damn hard to get hype about a franchise that Sega has exhibited basically no interest in supporting over here. The sheer, unbridled, fucktacular arrogance of their retarded “you don’t BUY these cabinets, you LEASE them, assholes, and FUCK YOU you stupid roundeyes motherfucking gaijin for even DARING to think about importing one” is so goddamn offensive I’m almost glad to see VF die over here, except for the fact that it does some fairly neat stuff mechanically that I kinda wish Tekken had done (better buffering system, mash G to clear the input buffer, vastly more intuitive stepping system). And even the Japanese are finding this shit hard to swallow, which is wh so many of their arcades are gravitating more towards the much-cheaper T6:BR.
Even if Sega belatedly ports VF5R over here at this way-too-late stage of the game, it’ll be little more than a smug “suck on that, you roundeyes bastards” gesture, and unless they ended up eating some serious humble pie with Japanese arcade operators over their cabinet-leasing scheme, something tells me they’re not even going to bother porting any subsequent VF5 revisions for Western consumption. At this stage, I’d say we’d be lucky to even get a console port of vanilla VF6 if they make it that far.
You can hardly blame people for not wanting to commit hard playtime to crusty old revisions of VF – an already intimidating game to pick up for serious play – when even the latest and greatest revision of Tekken 6 is comparatively “right over there”. There’s something to be said for a game that actually boots in America without demanding to talk to the mothership.
The question is, does Sega try a VF6, and do they take the risk of making it more casual friendly? I think they going to have to either do that or be done with VF.
That said, ST is probably the one game where we match up most evenly with Japan.
I’ll slightly disagree with this. Top ten is still popular and if you adjust the Arcadia rankings the game is fairing a little bit better. There are tons of Zoome and YouTube channels that have VF5R players with well under 50% win ratios. Most people at VFDC focus on only good player match videos, the Koedo, High Kick Radio, Homestay, Fuudo, or whatnot accounts. If you look around you’ll see lots of casual players playing VF. I’ve seen dozens of players who have 1000s of matches yet win ratios between 30-40%. They aren’t hardcore in that they study frames or read the colored books…they probably just play because they find the characters or costumes cool.
The implication of this thread is that VF is dying in Japan because people don’t want to play it anymore compared to other games. In reality it’s dying more because Sega only leases the machines, so independent arcades scoff at keeping more than a few units around. Not only that but Sega closed 100 arcades last year…so that’s 100 arcades worth of VF machines gone. The amount of VF5R machines compared to VF4 machines is a very significant difference.
For all we know if Sega didn’t lease the machines and didn’t close 100 arcades, VF5/VF5R might have done a lot better, instead the arcade scene is deteriorating alongside AM2’s franchise fighting series.
Lastly, talking with the Japanese several years ago, I was surprised at how many low and mid level Japanese players used VF4:EVO’s tutorial mode on the PS2. Quite a handful of players (especially kids) were learning the game on their home consoles and then taking what they learned to the arcade. Basically people could learn the entire system, flowcharts, and combos at home from the console version of VF4:EVO and then bring that knowledge to the arcades. With VF5 and VF5R it’s almost impossible to get at mid level just playing at the arcades unless you have loads of prior VF knowledge. I couldn’t imagine trying to figure out VF5R from the ground up paying $1 per match. That tutorial mode from 4EVO brought out a solid amount of people to the arcades in Japan and meant that most people entered the arcade with a mid level understanding of VF.
Other than maybe a half dozen players we have no one that is comparable to top or even mid level Japanese for the most part. We don’t have an American answer for Nakamura, Shogatsu, Toutanki, Mayakon, Inomata, Taira, or Aniken for example. Who plays Cammy as well as Nakamura in the states? Do we have a T.Hawk player who can even come close to Toutanki? Our best Cammy and best T.Hawk (and pretty much every other character) pales in comparison to top Japanese players.
And the mid level Japanese players would wipe the floor with our mid level ST players. And the mid level Japanese players of ST far outnumber our mid level players. The U.S. maybe has a half dozen players who are as good as the best Japanese (and even then I’d debate that) in ST. The rest of the U.S. in ST isn’t even mid level in Japan from what I’ve seen.
Why do like half of the threads degenerate into Japan vs. USA bullshit? Get off the nuts of your favorite top players, both nip and american and enjoy the games you like, jesus.
Ben - If you’re going to talk up a game and say it’s like, the Most Technical and Hardcore Fight Manz of All Time, and then turn around and go back to a different game, you can see how irritating it would get. People talk up VF for cred more or less.
as for US’s best game relative to japan the real answer is cvs2 by far
also i used to play vf p. seriously but never got that far…though i did almost beat raoh (japanese 3s chun player) at evo. and i got 4th at MWC last year without ever having played vf5 before
so basically i am more qualified to speak about the game than the majority itt, yet i still don’t. that’s a hint for yall
Is there any truth to the rumored Tekken Vs. VF collaboration?
I figure that’s the ONLY thing at this point that will get VF some mainstream attention in the US, much like Capcom Vs. SNK did for SNK 10 years ago…
VF doesn’t care about non-aZn ppl.
VF is the Emil of fighting games.
This thread should die with this post and any other VF related thread after this one and from now on. I love this game, but SoJ doesn’t care and neither should we.
What happened with VF4 Final Tuned? Tekken 5 was released around the same time (I think FT was late Summer 04 and T5 was Winter)… FT was not that popular, and T5 took Japan arcades by storm. Anecdotally speaking, VF4 vanilla hit Japan arcades like the 2nd coming, but it died down before FT. Some arcade operators didn’t even upgrade from Evo, but they bought all the T5 equipment (card machines and spectator monitors). It’s like casual/mid-level players were burned out by VF, and T5 filled the void.
I’m just saying the downward trend might have happened before VF5. I’m not a VF scene expert, but I follow trends in Japan arcades (from magazine reports, discussion boards and in person).
tekken and VF have already did a colab on a game. YEARS before dream factory started to suck ass, the main people that do 3d fighting games for namco\sega were part of dream factory. Once tobal 2 dropped, the core developers went to go help work on the tekken\VF games. If you’ve ever wanted to see what it would be like if the those 2 companies made a game together, go look @ tobal 2.
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This game is so beastly and I’ve been playing it daily for about a week now. If this game was polished up with just up to date graphics, you wouldn’t be able to tell this game was made in 1997. Not that it needs newer graphics or anything like that. The game was never released in the states. Part 1 was released here but tobal 2 blows it out the water by comparison. Tweaks to the engine damn near made it perfect.
well seeing VF 1 and 2 was big shit when they dropped, Sega dropped the ball somewhere during 3. Even though the arcade scene was dying in the 90s, you couldn’t go anywhere without a huge ass crowd gathered either watching/waiting/playing VF1 and 2.
I’ve always liked VF for its high curve of learning but I didn’t get serious into it in 4…which then was hard due to no competition and for the fact I had to actually play a good amount just to learn the person I wanted. (which was wolf…not easy obviously.) Then there’s the fact Sega kinda just…puts it out. Sega don’t really hype their games anymore. There was VF4 hype but compared to 90s sega, there would’ve been much more from it.
and then there’s the fact it’s a high learning curve. Obviously it’s not going to attract many casuals because it’s “too hard”. Then there’s the fact the story for the game is damn near non existent and american kids love some type of known story in their fighters. I love VF series but if anyone is to point the finger to first, blame sega.
Yes, it is dying in Japan.
where I use to play tekken was more popular then VF, that’s tekken 2 not 1
the time I would try to get the tekken players to play some VF2 but they wouldn’t even try it and the 2 machines were right next to each other.
the problem with VF3 was the machine was too expensive, the arcade was charging a $1 per game and I think the machine even had a slot to take a $1 also. it took some time before a price drop and people never really started playing.
Hearing it from Reno hurts me the most. Since I feel he is the one person who can comment on the scene in this thread. BTW, did the Koreans stop playing VF due to the leasing issues with the VF machines? I know a lot of top VF players in Korea moved to Tekken.
Didn’t Kusumondo say he can feel that one frame of input delay?
Using matches where Japanese players are losing mainly to O Sagats, is not a good argument. Regardless of your results (3-2, 2-2, etc), there is no one that really comes close to players like YuuVega, Otochun, Kurahashi, Sawada, Toutanki, etc etc etc etc etc etc. As VF4 said, even Japan’s “mid level” players blow us out in terms of ability.
Volume is the what the Japanese have over the west. We have a handful of guys, while they have dozens. When you’re constantly playing guys at that level, you’re forced to step your shit up if you want to stand out.
Heh, I didn’t expect to find this kind of discussion while I’m randomly killing time reading a VF thread…
I wrote a response in the ST in the house thread to avoid a further derail.
Fuck the scrubs who can’t take the time to learn games anymore. Tired of this easy ass BS stuff they try to implement now like short cuts in SF4 and increasing the window of the special\super AFTER they’ve already given scrubs a short cut. Learn the god damn game. A higher learning curve is supposed to be a good thing, well it used to be anyway.
Fuck your story line. Who the fuck really buys a fighting game because the story line is supposed to the best around? 1-10% of the total buyers MAYBE? If you want a story line, go read a fucking book or play an RPG.
I blame scrubs for bitching about simplicity and the fighting game developers for listening to them.