For example: Sagat and Bison are in the same wake up timing group so a specific jump in timing on them as they are waking up always works. But It doesn’t work on Dhalsim cause he wakes up slower.
Is there a list of the different wake up speeds for each character? In CvS2 there was a list composed where half of the cast woke up at the same time, so you could do free jump ins on those characters, but not on others.
I know there is such a thing in SF4, but no idea if anyone took the time to figure it out. (Please do!) This knowledge would be useful to figure out who you could jump in free on and which setup you would need to do once you learn their get up speed.
I’m not entirely sure but I did a little testing awhile back about this. From what I tested, I thought that everyone got up the same speed except for Sagat, Blanka, and Balrog. It seemed that Sagat got up the slowest whereas Rog, Blanka got up a little bit faster.
Although I guess you say Sagat and Bison get up the same speed? Also, I believe that wake up speeds are different depending on whether they are getting up from face down or face up. I didn’t test face down but I’m pretty sure that it’s a little different timing for some.
I did a bunch of face up tests. For example, I would do Ken Ultra then hold straight up forward and try and do meaty ass jump rk. It would miss on Sagat, Rog and Blanka iirc. A really simple one is just do like Akuma sweep then hold up forward and land low jab. That’s perfectly meaty timing on almost everyone except Rog, Sagat, and Blanka who I can get it to whiff if I do it fast enough iirc. You can alternatively meaty them by jumping and whiffing a normal (thus increasing your time before you can do anything when you land) and then land low jab or you can just empty jump into a low short/forward which will meaty since they are a bit slower then c. jab. My tests weren’t the most accurate though of course, they were all just Record and Playback and then pick each character.
I’d be interested if there was an official list somewhere about this. I’d test some more right now but I don’t have my game with me.
Try these:
-Gen’s forward throw + 2 crane jumps vs. Honda and Sagat is a perfect safe jump. If you use 1 mantis jump and 1 crane jump (one frame faster then 2 crane jumps,) the jump in just barely whiffs.
-Use Ryu’s sweep and hold up-forward for a safe jump against Honda, but then it whiffs against Sagat.
Both setups involve no manual timing (you just hold up/up-forward) so there isn’t much room for error.
Gen’s great for testing this kind of stuff though because his varied jump speeds give you more control over any tests you do. That forward throw setup hits with 1 mantis and 1 crane jump against the majority of the cast, but around half a dozen characters only get hit by 2 crane jumps, while Blanka and Cammy wake up too slow even for that. No one wakes up fast enough to be hit by 2 mantis jumps.
I haven’t tested this stuff for months though, so I hope I got all that right.
I tried testing it as follows (2P PStick setup, generally frame accurate).
P1 Ryu does d+HK on Frame 1 (i5 according to eventhubs framedata). P2 presses up for a single frame, and the first frame when this resulted in a jump after the wakeup recovery was noted. Repeated each trial 5 times for accuracy, results seem reliable. Tested with all characters.
Most P2 characters will jump when up is pressed on F88 (including Gen in both stances). The only exceptions which I found were
Cammy F89
Blanka F90
Sagat F89
Also, you could probably visually confirm this by doing the same thing. Record. Sweep on F1 then just hold up, and see if they start jumping on different frames. Problem would be 30fps capture would make it hard to tell a difference of one frame apart.
I always knew blanka’s wakeup animation is slower, cause my meaty/safe jump timing is always off against him. Now I know exactly how much slower it is, thanks
There’s a reason for the problems you’re having yeb, characters get up at different rates depending on HOW THEY FELL DOWN. Yes it’s hella random. If you forward throw them with gen, there’s a whole different set of get up speeds across the board than if you sweep them with ryu. You really have to take your individual character’s knockdowns and test them all vs. every character since your knockdowns wont cause the exact same floor time as anyone else’s. I thought this was kinda wierd at first but after testing safe jump setups extensively with 3 or 4 characters it’s pretty much confirmed.
For example, forward throw, hold up-forward is a perfect safe jump setup vs. sagat with fuerte. However, if you do that to cammy(whose reversal is the same speed) it not only doesn’t work, it doesn’t even come close to working. So cammy gets up faster than sagat? But wait. If I do a forward throw with akuma, dash in twice then jump is also a safe jump vs. sagat. If I do that to cammy, the kick misses because she gets up TOO SLOW. So in the case of fuerte’s throw, cammy gets up faster, in the case of akuma’s, she gets up slower. I am sure this randomness spreads itself across the entire roster.
This is interesting. I hadn’t really thought about this topic, but what’s being said about how the wake up timing is different for different knockdowns and characters feels right…
Oh dear.
I tested the full cast against Ryu’s Focus attack, which gives a face down crumple.
Most characters could jump on F184 (FA was held for 25F for reference).
Exceptions were Dhalsim, Blanka, Sagat, Vega(Claw) who were all a frame slower (F185).
Thinking that this was making sense, I decided to trial the scenarios that halcyonryu mentioned.
El Fuerte f+throw (leaves them FD) vs Sagat F186, Cammy F185 = good, sticking to what I found above.
Akuma f+throw (leaves them FU) vs Sagat F171, Cammy F173 = right order, but not sure why it’s suddenly 2F difference. Then I tried Blanka, F170. … so blanka who was the slowest of the recoveries post Ryu d+HK recovers faster post Akuma f+throw.
Sadly, I’m off for about a month now, and my friend is borrowing my PS3, so no more testing. But, I think there probably is some rule set governing this somewhere (whether it be further subdivisions of knowndown states beyond just head up and head down), but at this time I don’t know what it is.
Perhaps for now, the exceptions (FU Cammy, Blanka, Sagat. FD Dhal, Blanka, Sagat, Vega. And people have also found exceptions with Balrog) would be worth remembering. Has anyone had problems outside these characters?
I used to think that it was just based on face up or face down, but there are cases where the knockdowns are both face down where the recoveries still aren’t consistent. I think it may have something to do with how the boxes are interacting on the 3d models since no sf game wake up timings have ever been this random before.
So after some testing, I’ve concluded that the wake up speeds from face upward are like this:
Blanka (slowest by far)
Cammy/Sagat (maybe 2 or so frames slower then the rest)
Fuerte (MAYBE 1 or so slower, not sure)
Everyone else (Gen however has some sort of weird wakeup where if you leave the stick in neutral a lot of stuff just whiffs on him, probably hitbox related)
I did a couple of tests.
First test I did was I would record Balrog to sweep, hold up forward whiff jump attack, land immediate c. jab (meaty such that it hits on the 2nd frame), link a sweep. By making the c. jab hit on the 2nd frame, I know I’m hitting the jab as late meaty as possible giving a +8 frame adv and therefore I can link a sweep (8 frames). This hit everyone in category 4 and the c. jab whiffed on everyone else.
Second test I did was record Balrog to sweep, hold up forward whiff jump attack, land immediate c. short (1 frame slower then c. jab), try and link stand jab off of c. short. This would only combo if I hit with the 2nd frame of the c. short which would give +4. This worked on everyone in category 2. It DIDN’T work on Fuerte (the c. short into jab was not a combo) which makes me think that Fuerte gets up in between 2 and 4 or Fuerte has something wierd going on with him.
Third test I did (which is more inaccurate cause it’s not 1 frame type of stuff) is simple sweep with Ryu then hold up forward and meaty jump RK. This hits everyone but whiffs cat 1 and 2. This doesn’t imply that Fuerte gets up the same speed as cat 4. IMO, this means that jump RK hits on the last possible frame against him whereas against cat 4 chars, it hits on potentially the second to last possible frame. However, Ken has a 4 frame reversal in jab/strong uppercuts and this setup is safe against those (but not to Ken’s fierce uppercut which is 3 frame) so that goes against that theory. I’m still unsure if Fuerte gets up at same speed as cat 4 people.
Blanka is just wildly out there somewhere getting up somewhere like 4 or more frames slower then category 4.
Now granted this game is pretty glitchy and some testing with wakeup reversal supers sort of might be evidence that this is not correct but I’ve come to the conclusion that supers are wierd and have their own thing going on. Anyway, this is what I think it is.
Edit: After some more testing, I’m thinking Fuerte is generally the same as everyone else. And Gen is wonky. I recorded Akuma to sweep and low short. If I don’t do anything with Gen then the short whiffs but if i hold a direction with the stick the short hits. So I’m starting to think Gen is the same as everyone else too just that his getup hitbox is wierd if you don’t push a stick direction. This game is wonky.
I just saw this. Actually, I remember that in the Master Guide, for throws there was a side note next to them that stated how long it would floor the opponent. So maybe throws all have their own thing going on that is completely different from sweep or other type of knockdowns.
According to my tests, Sagat and Cammy get up at the same speed but according to your tests, Cammy gets up at a different speed. Potentially throws have different rules or maybe it’s just glitchy. Did you record Fuerte/Akuma to do this or did you just try it on a friend and have him try and uppercut you with both Cammy/Sagat? Game is all glitchy, haha.
Edit: If Fuerte forward throw puts them in face down state then that might at least explain the difference there since I’m pretty positive face down and face up wake up speed have different timings.
The wakeup values can be obtained very easily on PC if you configure FRAPS to record at 60fps. I can try to test a few later. When do the significant frames start though? At the point of knockdown or from the time the character begins to rise? Some characters may have longer knockdown frames depending on the situation so this could be why Blanka’s wakeup seems ambiguous.
[edit: Just realized I repeated a bit of what halcyonryu posted earlier]
Blanka, cammy and sagat are different !! and blanka is slowest
Edit : i just read the others post… FD and FU ? What the heck !!! O__o
Edit 2 : If you look, some characters fall fast than others. For exemple nemo said you can do a cr lk follow by ex Legs with chun li on Viper. If you jump instantly and viper choose to do a quickstand, chun li is in a perfect setup for safe jump but it works only for viper. Gen who has a gekirou slow like thunder knuckles HP of viper ( 7frames is not concerned. In fact the jump whiff on all the cast barely except viper (not sure)
So perhaps it’s the same thing after a throw or a crumple. Perhaps
After a FA whith chun li, if you do a back dash foloow by hanzan shu (ex or normals), your opponent is down and he cannot quickstand (yes even with **normal **hazan shu).
I think perhaps it’s the perfect setup to test wake timing cause this hazanshu cause an “instant” knockdown. Your opponent is not airborn or something before touching the ground
That was kinda the point I was trying to make, sorry if I wasn’t clear. I’m not sure if there even can be a simple CvS2-style list for SF4, because there seems to be a lot of variation across different knockdowns from different characters. Noodall’s “oh dear…” post is a great example.
UltraDavid ran into literally this same problem while working on Zangief’s wakeup options. Gen actually doesn’t have a slow wakeup, it’s something much weirder than that. Basically, Gen’s wakeup animation continues even after he’s considered officially standing, and it causes problems.
The face up wakeup animation goes like this:
Gen starts to flip up onto his feet.
Gen’s feet touch the ground. At this point, he’s considered standing - reversals will come out, you can jump, crouch, walk, block, attack, etc.
This only happens if you leave the stick neutral: Gen’s flip animation continues and he kneels down extremely low. He gets down to nearly coward crouch height - it can avoid tons of things, including c.jabs and apparently part of a c.short.
Gen rises from his kneeling position and returns to a normal hitbox.
All 3 of your tests against Gen are actually thrown off by this. If you even set the training dummy to crouch, Gen’s wakeup kneel will be interrupted and he’ll fit perfectly into the standard wakeup speed group. I wouldn’t be surprised if other characters are the same way off one of their wakeup animations.
Still, you did get consistent results with sweeps from 2 different characters, so that could mean something.
There’s no way Blanka gets up only 2 frames slower than everyone else. It’s alot longer than that. I can use the guile combo video to show you how much slower he gets up from a knockdown.
[media=youtube]lato8FmMoIQ[/media]
Notice the setup I use on those corner combos. I do a FK to knock them down, then I immediately do b+mk, then throw a SB. My opponent will wakeup into this meaty SB. At the end of the video, look at the 16-hit combo I do to Blanka. Notice the setup I do on the knockdown there. I do FK to knockdown, then b+mk, THEN s.jab, then SB. I do this setup because if I do the other setup, the SB will pass over Blanka’s head because he gets up too slow. You can also try this same meaty SB setup by doing Guile’s b+throw into the corner, then b+mk, SB.
Guile’s s.jab is 12 frames long, so Blanka wakes up at least 12 frames slower than everyone else.
Piecemontee is working on this awesome SF4 PC asset browser. Right now he has the models/textures able to be viewed/exported. He’s currently working on figuring out how to view the animations for the game. Once he gets this completed, we will be able to know for sure how long each getup animation is.
I don’t think this conclusion really follows from the video though. I mean, all a meaty really has to do is sit over a character’s hitbox as they get up. Given jab SB’s relatively slow speed and its width, the window to time a meaty SB seems (frame-wise) relatively large. Individual character hitboxes would also cause some variation.
I’m not saying timing meaty SB’s is easy, but it doesn’t seem like a good way to test differences in wake up timings.
UltraDavid ran into literally this same problem while working on Zangief’s wakeup options. Gen actually doesn’t have a slow wakeup, it’s something much weirder than that. Basically, Gen’s wakeup animation continues even after he’s considered officially standing, and it causes problems.