Is the input for Street Fighter games too complex or unintuitive?

Current Fighting Games Fighting Game Discussion
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I think STHDR does a good job at approaching the “How to play” ideas, with their “Round 1, 2, 3, final” videos. They showed a lot of the combo possibilities, a bit of strategies, and some of the trickier situations you could get into.

Also, the single player mode of HDR, the difficulty there… unlike before, when the CPU utterly cheated and did impractical things, now, they play a lot like humans. Honda Teaches you to FEAR the Ochio. Balrog links normals before doing charge blows. Sagat Tiger-pressures, characters use normals and not just specials to keep you out, Ken constantly tries to cross you up, and Akuma Jazzes back and forward as if he’s trying to run a footsies game on you. To me, this is a great way to try and teach people how REAL players play, and to show them strategies that they can aspire too. I just wish this was pointed out somewhere, because it should help promote the game.

But yeah, “Character Primer Videos” should really be released, FREE, downloadable for each character in fighters, over online services. It’s PROMOTION. The more people who can understand these things, the better. Searching and finding it online is wonderful, but it would be much easier to see and enjoy directly on a console.

I’d also suggest a terms glossary. for everything from “2-in-1s” to “Negative Edge” to “Juggle” and the like. SRK’s wiki has these things, but the games should do it too.

Oh, and the mention of this thread, about fighters being so complex, and if there would be different fighters, if SF never existed… just about every “Anime Fighter” shows what the world would be like with REALLY simple motions, more flash, less glitch-derived substance, more straightforward priorities, etc. I love Treasure’s combat games. Guardian Heroes and the Yu Yu Hakusho game, as well as the Bleach DS games, should all be the perfect games make in ways that appeal to a broad range of games. (And I still think we need Jump Super/Ultimate Stars style games on full consoles, too.)

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both of you have good points in what are you saying, but if you let me i want to add something to the disscusion, one of the main reasons of why the fighting games are so frustrating for the casual players (or scrubs as we reffer to them sometimes ) is the hardcore players, why? well, how many times did we play against a beginer and destroyed him only to show off? im pretty sure that when this person see the difference in skill it will be intimidated, of course some people have the will to get better in the game (we were beginners too), but the majority will be dissapointed, maybe he is having some hard time to finding out how to play and then someone who its better than him/her, comes and kicks his/her ass without misericordy, in this aspect many of us fail, all the events that are held by the different communities are only for the hardcore, i know that its difficult to make this tournaments, but maybe if we make some events for the newcomers maybe they will find out how intersting is this world, after all is our responsability as a community or at least is what i think, right now im introducing my little cousins to the fighting games, i love GG, but i decided that for them the better way to start is SFHD because its a great game to learn the basics of the 2d fighting games (after all, this was my first school :wgrin:), as well im trying to introduce some friends to other Fg’s like GG or VF5, until now many of them are showing good progress and are showing a genuine interest in getting better.

If the future of the FG is in the consoles or in the arcades, this is a very regional situation, for example here in my country we are seeing a renaissance, there are a lot of people who are going to the arcades to play now, and they are bringing many new games to the arcade as well :lovin:

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someone teaching someone else would be great… having a day where one or 2 really good people get into a game set to infinite time, max rounds, etc… and explain things to new people who dont understand how to do them, or always loose to a certain character, it could help greatly. It never helps when someone who’s 10x better any everyone in the room sits there picking the game guy and constantly kicks new players asses, your not showing me your good, your showing me your an asshole, go play people closer to your skill level. thats why i wish they would put in a matchmaking system. which could pair you up with equally skilled players. for the casual people it’d be better. the entire attitude of calling someone a “scrub” is something that just needs to die if you want your game to maintain a decent life.

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The inputs for specials are actually not that hard. I’m saying this from the perspective of when I was starting out, when my friends/fellow fighting gamers I met while growing up were learning AND seeing the people I teach catch on rather quickly. That’s not the issue IMO. The real barrier I see is putting it all together into a viable playstyle and facing off against the competition. Strategy and execution in a fighting game aren’t the exact same thing but they are definitely related at times and both should be considered during a match. I think Street Fighter was designed with that in mind. Face it, we’ve come a long way and even still most of us will eventually have to play against someone who’s leagues better than us/knows more about the game mechanics/is a better strategist AND executionist etc.

…And we’ll lose… several times. It’s just that we stick around and work on stepping up our game because we actually WANT to get better and are willing to put in the effort required to do so. Knowing how to do specials or combos alone is not necessarily going to get those results. And when people don’t see those results (i.e. they’re “winning” or at least fighting at a point where they think they are decent), they might get discouraged and abandon the game because they believe it’s too much work. There’s just too much knowledge to retain. And it usually doesn’t help if they’re getting dissed while playing either (this can include in-game taunts/tom-foolery).

So we come down to the concept of knowing enough about the game’s system and being able to outplay your opponent. That takes time. The larger the execution barrier the longer it will take perhaps. But like I said before, I don’t think actually performing the moves for most games is what’s holding people back. It’s knowing how and when to use a move (and not necessarily a special move) effectively and most people just don’t have the patience for that when all they see is that they’re losing. We can provide godlike training modes and tutorials for people to use but in the end a tutorial is only useful for those who bother to take a look at it. People have to willing to learn to some degree.

I don’t really think everything involved in a fighter really appeals to a casual gamer. Some people just want to press a couple of buttons and have some cool shit happen. That’s it. Give them that and they’re satisfied. But at the same time when developers do that, it may take away some things that make the game feel more fulfilling/rewarding for other players (me being one of them) and it’s still probably not going to put the casual gamer at a level where they can be considered decent competition because everyone else can do it too (but they also have the other aspects of fighters in mind). Eventually people will drop the game but some will keep playing because it fuels their competitive drive and it’s still fun and entertaining… even if it’s the other player doing all of the cool shit at the moment. That’s where fighting gamers are born.

85

That statement about import copies wasn’t an absolute statement, but the point I’m making as that most these games just aren’t marketed to Americans. Simple as that.

They are successful where they are marketed, which is in Japan. Fighting games were made for arcades, and trying to bring the same game here will barely sell better than a magazine about Japanese pop culture in Japanese. We experience a period of time where arcades were popular, so the gaming culture was similar enough for fighting games to be successful, but at this point in time, arcade fighting games aren’t successful here. Why should they change the formula of what is successful in Japan to fit what will be successful here?

It looks like most of the other shit elaborates on what you’re talking about above, but to reiterate, SF has mainly just been transplanted from Japan to here, but the decline in interest in the states isn’t mirrored in Japan. With that in mind, I don’t think you can necessarily draw the same conclusions about what x developer needs to do about their seemingly dying franchise, when you aren’t considering the playerbase they are aiming for.

EDIT:

I agree that it seems like SF4 is going for big time console sales, but I’m inclined to think they are going for low hanging fruit with multiple bring back console exclusive characters and making it in 3D. Games like Tekken or VF were never neutered, and I think most of those games went greatest hits. I’m not sure they expect Smash level sales, but who knows. It seems like they’ve already made big efforts to grab the casual crowd.

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Yes. :tup:

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pherai:

> That statement about import copies wasn’t an absolute statement, but the point I’m making as that most these games just aren’t marketed to Americans. Simple as that.

This is irrelevant. RPGs weren’t “marketed to Americans” once upon a time either, but I don’t think one writes off the JRPG market in the US now.

> They are successful where they are marketed, which is in Japan. Fighting games were made for arcades, and trying to bring the same game here will barely sell better than a magazine about Japanese pop culture in Japanese.

For one, this is revisionist history. Street Fighter was initially bigger in the west than in Japan. And second, the Sf3 series (including Third Strike) bombed in Japan too.

> Why should they change the formula of what is successful in Japan to fit what will be successful here?

Because the JPN arcade market is also shrinking, albeit obviously not to the extent that it is in the west.

> I agree that it seems like SF4 is going for big time console sales, but I’m inclined to think they are going for low hanging fruit with multiple bring back console exclusive characters and making it in 3D.

If by “low hanging fruit” you mean “not shooting themselves in the foot”, then you’re right. Contrary to what Ono said, SFIV as a 2D sprite fighter was never an option. The failure of the SF3 series saw to that.

And as for “console exclusive characters”, as has been said a number of times, the console version is the finished version of the game that Capcom wanted to create. The arcade version was pushed out early, well ahead of schedule, perhaps to start to recoup costs, but that was a stopgap. The console version was planned from the beginning.

Thus, if it’s anything, it’s the arcade market that got thrown a bone, not console gamers getting benefits they wouldn’t have received otherwise.

> Games like Tekken or VF were never neutered, and I think most of those games went greatest hits. I’m not sure they expect Smash level sales, but who knows. It seems like they’ve already made big efforts to grab the casual crowd.

Actually, I’ll bet if the game does PSX SFA3 numbers, they’ll be quite satisfied. Smash levels sales is pretty out of the question, though we can always hope.

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Then guile would be the new o.sagat. talking st here

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Your point is taken, I understand that Capcom’s main market in mind is Japan. I don’t have numbers to back up my argument (maybe you do?), but I’m suspicious about the “decline in interest” not being mirrored in Japan. Why else would Capcom not release a new SF game for 8 years? It seems like they didn’t feel the market would be viable for it, or something.

In the meantime, they also know that America (used to) really enjoy Street Fighter games. I believe their best selling game of all time is still SF2 on the SNES, and that the console market is the best way to tap into this base in America. And as soon as you bring that discussion up, I think it’s important to look at how to reach the millions of other console owners who might have never tried a SF game before… especially considering the cost that will go into the product, and the need to make a reasonable profit instead of breaking even plus a little bit. Again, if they were just releasing a port of SF4 for consoles, then I don’t think I can really use this argument (the console release would be for the arcade players who want to practice combos, etc). But they’re going all out on this release with new characters, hefty online mode, etc.

tl;dr: While Japan may be the primary market, America is too big to ignore. Especially with the trend of recent Japanese developers sort of “envying” American designers in recent press interviews. The trend seems to be shifting. How much longer is a Japan-centric model profitable, if it even was for SF in the past 10 years? (I think you can argue that it wasn’t, given the drought of games)

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Capcom is a big business, and they will be targeting consoles around the globe over arcades in Japan.

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i dont get where this “smash is the future” stuff is coming from. smash sells well because its a fun game to play with a group of friends, not because its the next evolution of fighting games. besides, now isnt a good time to pull the “analog sticks and button presses are the future, adapt or die you old dinosaurs” argument (im not even old…). for example, instead of getting Super Street Fighter Brawl: Jump and Get a Tiger Upyourbutt Edition, we have stuff like STHD, blazblue, SF4, and TvC, all of which are games which require learning to use an ANCIENT input device used by equally ancient MAYAN CIVILIZATIONS: the arcade joystick.

clearly, fighting games arent dying yet. its not lupus. bonus points if youre a House fan.

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Too add my two cents and sound like an ass repeating whats already probally been said. To pull off the moves in Sf games and those of the like take a meduim amount of skill and cordination. Those people that lack the cordination to simutainously move there wriest/finger and press a button find these games quite challenging.

On the other hand to make a game were specials, normals, and supers are done with the press of a button will appeal to the casual gamers cause they are able to pull off moves with little or no cordination. However I think this will not prevent them from getting own’d or make them better faster because it boils down to control (IMO of course). If the casual gamer (and I’m using smash as an example) spams the c-stick they will get own’d by another casuel gamer that exibit’s more control over their character I.E using block, rolling etc, etc.

On another note anyone remember those bandai games with the insane joystick motions? Like powe rangers and the first few dragon ball games on Snes and Sega? Now those were complex motions.

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Stop putting words into peoples mouths, no one is even criticizing arcade sticks. Not everyone is going to buy an arcade stick after shelling out a ton of money for a console and it’s over priced little wireless controllers. It might come down to the willingness of the consumer to invest in a stick, or that might not even matter and everyone will play fighters with the d-pad. I wont be, I’ll have a stick, but I’m a huge nerd.

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This thread reminds me of my friend. I’ve been playing HDR for about a week now and my roommate started playing one night. He was in training mode playing with Claw. Now mind you he’s seen me doing super moves, linking normals into super moves, and doing combos in general. He asked me how to do Claw’s super. I lol’ed cause I had no idea where to start. He couldn’t even do the regular specials. I tried to tell him how to do it, but telling someone who hasn’t played street fighter seriously to charge db, then proceed to press df, db, uf+k ended with a long laugh. He quit and started to play Uncharted. Funny story.

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I think with the right people, learning the moves is fairly simple. It can be hard, but its something that can be practiced in training mode to gain the dexterity to do them.

After you learn the moves however, playing the game against someone begins to show a completely new side of the game. I think thats where most people end up getting frustrated with it. unable to figure out why this block didnt work, or why he didnt hit he other guy when he did that. This is where teaching really needs to come in place. The people who are so serious about the game that they learn to count frames so they know the precise milisecond to use a move seem to discourage people the most. no one talks during games on XBL, and PSN seem too buggy to bother with atm.

If the street fighter community really wants the game to expand, they need to stop worrying about looking cool to new people, and take some time to explain a few things once in a while.

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I find it very interesting how this conversation has changed.
The tone has changed some what such that the barrier to enjoy a fighting game is learning how to beat people. Competition is fun, when you have a chance to win.

Stepping back a bit, if the problem is teaching people how to play against a person (the metagame) could we agree that we might as well just throw them all a bone and give them specials “for free”? New players don’t have 10+ years to “catchup” to veterans.

Its interesting to note that some games these days (especially Nintendo ones) “normalize” the skill level across players such that a better player won’t win as badly against an unskilled opponent (MarioKart, MarioParty, Smash). Skill (usually) prevails its just not as one sided. Smash even has a thriving competitive community, like it or not.

Given the many years of StreetFighter, I’m fairly sad how little the game has evolved. SF4 is essentially SF2 with a new coat of paint. Remakes are great and all, but where’s the evolution?

When it comes to game design, I feel that you can’t add too much depth and complexity without trivializing your basics. I posted it early about all the techniques in fighting games, and the previous trend of games was to always add more and new things. That’s how sequel’s were made. But as you add new things, your base level needs to trivialize more and more else you risk overwhelming your players.

If the ol’ dinosaurs want their old style of play, give em a classic control mode. But give the new guys a way to enjoy the content of their game. Even if they can’t beat the best players atleast they can have fun within their own circles.

Here I make a bold statement.
I believe the SF community has evolved where basic input is not a skill, its expected. And its time that the game did too.

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Revisionist history? I never claimed they were more successful there, just that they are originally intended for Japanese gamers. As of a couple of months ago, 3s was in the top 10 games in arcadia magazine. If you can give evidence to its lack of success, bring it forward, but I’ve never seen any.

Everybody is hitting hard times economically, including Japan. Can you give any proof that the current hard times arcades are facing is any more permanent than the hard times most businesses are facing?

Can’t disagree with that. I imagine that’s what they are expecting.

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Any figures on how much SFA3 sold on PSX? Wiki didn’t seem to have numbers.

I seem to recall hearing Capcom issue their target goals for their upcoming games, and SF4 was expected to sell something like 1.7 million across the different platforms. That seems kind of lofty to me, but I hope they attain it.

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I think this kind of thought needs to change and quick. With the release of SF2HD, an entirely new crowd of people can join into the game, and when you expect a certain level from everyone just because the game is old as shit, then you somewhat alienate the ones who might actually WANT to get good at the game.

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As somewhat of an example, Melty Blood has already demonstrated that a game with simpler inputs can still maintain the level of complexity required to gather a strong enough player base to get a spot at SBO. Most specials in MB are executed with a quarter circle or dp, and supers are generally just a half circle. There are a few moves that use something like a 632146, but they are rare and could just as easily have used a simpler input. As far as I can remember, there are no 360s or charge moves.

Really though, if people have trouble mastering grasp quarter and half circles then I think the problems new players have with inputs probably comes as much from the popular controllers these days as anything else. In my experience, the PlayStation-style dpad is in itself a hindrance to the learning process and I have had much more success teaching people on GGXX#R for the old xbox with its more intuitive disc-shaped d-pad. Unfortunately, your controller choices these days are basically limited to ps2/ps3, 360, and arcade stick, none of which are very friendly for many new players.

I can’t speak for everyone, but I have been playing 2d fighters for about 3 years now and have spent some absurd amounts of time in training modes for various games. After all that time I can say with absolute certainty that mastering inputs has been the least enjoyable aspect of the genre for me. Charge moves and 360s can especially fuck off, although I can somewhat tolerate back-forward charges in certain limited cases (Potemkin). I guess some people like complicated inputs, but for me it just seems to get in the way of the vastly more enjoyable strategic aspects of the genre. Quarter circles, dragon punches, and half circles are fine, but too much beyond that just gets annoying.