It’s only too hard if you can’t do it; those that can’t do it may hate it, but the ones that can love it. Pulling off hard moves is a skill and gives you a sense of satisfaction.
probably not. i think there’s more of an emphasis on instant results in the console era.
yeah, but is that appeal still relevant today? when i first started playing SF2 there was no gamefaq, online tutorials, combo videos, frame rate data, strategy guides, etc. you came by your knowledge in the arcades by winning, losing (quarters), word-of-mouth, observing, etc. conversely, FG are instantly accessible (as long as you have the knowledge and can physically pull off the move) in many ways compared to the past. times have changed.
i disagree. years ago, i tried playing SF2 on the SNES after playing it in the arcades. the experience wasn’t complicated by the moves. it was complicated by the tiny controller and buttons. playing with my thumbs isn’t for me.
I think most people feel its too complex due to a lack of proper teaching. like i said above, i thought you had to start back to do a shoryuken. meaning for every move that i saw that crazy Z figure on in STHD, i was doing an extra movement that made it about 10x harder for me to do it, the only reason i figured out that i was doing something extra was because i was trying to do a super move (ken or ryu’s, i forget) and doing the double QCF was causing me to do a shoryuken. I was confused at this because i thought you had to start with back. so i inquired and found out i was doing it wrong. all because the movelist in the game is the shittiest one ever. If there had been a decent tutorial, SHOWING me and explaining how these moves were done, they would’ve been TONS less complicated.
Its this not knowing that forms bad habbits and causes people to make things more complex than they actually are. And when they get paired up with someone who can royally kick their ass, they get confused and have no idea what’s happened. It’s never a good state of mind for a new player.
The answer to the thread title is YES: When you factor in the entire gaming populace (and not just people playing fighting games, or worse yet, people who’ve been playing fighting games regularly since SF2) SF’s controls ARE too complex and unintuitive. A more important question should be: Does this matter? The answer should be “NO”, because SF always had complex and unintuitive controls.
Sure, you used to have a few that seemed to map okay, like the charge motions and the rapid tap motions, but pretty most motion specials didn’t make sense if you stopped to think about them (why does a motion ending in a DOWN-FORWARD make you move UP-FORWARD?). This never mattered though, because the game was too damn awesome. We put up with SF in spite of the complexity of the controls, not because of them.
You can make a really awesome fighting game with simplified specials and controls. However, I would contend that "Street Fighter is not a game that can (or should) be simplified beyond a certain measure. It’s completely unnecessary: There are things you can do to make SF more “scrub friendly” without making the execution completely barrier-free. You would have to completely redesign all the characters to suit such a control scheme, in which case you might as well make a different fighting game series entirely. Moreover, it doesn’t matter how easy you make the motions, some especially uncoordinated player out there is not going to be able to pull off every move in your game. The trick is to make the rest of the game enticing enough that even these players will enjoy it.
Topics like this always come to mind when I think about how a game series can grow and evolve and still be inviting to new players.
At the higher still levels, input and execution of specials is a no brainier, you want a move it comes out. In the early days this is what separated the boys from the men.
Fast forward a bit and now we have cross-ups and combos.
Forward again we have supers.
And eventually we get air combos, custom combos, Dash / Super Canceling, Parrying etc…
That’s alot of depth and if you can’t even get past the first hurdle, forget it.
I really don’t think this makes for good game design unless your specifically targeting the hardcore market. While games like this are great it alienates a tonne of my local friends. I simply cannot play StreetFighter with them.
I would love to see a more user friendly game, **rebalanced[/B ]SF game with 1 button specials. TvC is suppose to have something like this?
The new separator from the boys and men is the ability to combo and know what combos in to what. Theres still a tonne of execution there, its just not move input. Its timing, spacing and having alot of knowledge of how the game works.
Lastly, I look at something like StarCraft2 (or War3 if you want to look at a released game) in which the game simplifies alot of the BASIC actions for you compared to the original. Things like Autocast, optimal pathing, group and unit selection, Single caster spell casting etc…
I would not say these features dumbed down the series, IMO it help grow and evolve them.
I really think 2D fighters need something like this.
LastNote: Vs series games are a great example of the proper direction (but not enough). Sure you can mash out craptastic combos but a skilled player is gonna unleash stronger combos and wipe the floor with a newb. But the newb can still have fun feeling awesome throwing out some crazy looking attacks.
To put it simply; even if you dumbed down Street Fighter’s controls, bad players would still get owned because the gap between noobs and pros is about far more than execution.
Of course there’s nothing wrong with execution being a part of that gap, to an extent, in the same way that athleticism is part of what separates people who are good at sports from those who are not.
And in reality, I don’t think that most people suck at doing basic Street Fighter motions nearly as much as the OP makes it out to be. When I was trying to get friends into 3S, one of my friends was pulling off gigas and combos into super with Makoto on his first night of playing and this guy had very limited experience with fighters before hand.
Although it isn’t the primary reason I play Street Fighter, combos are fun. A simple combo with 3S Alex that anyone can learn (Or at least I thought/hoped) like j. fierce, cl. forward xx EX flash chop just wouldn’t feel as awesome to land in a match if the flash chop came out at the press of one button.
And how would you incorporate EX moves into a game if the specials were simple commands, anyway? How would you piano the buttons to increase the likely hood of your reversal dragon punch coming out? In some cases, making the execution easier would remove some of your options/strategy.
There are other fighting games out there that are more and less complex than Street Fighter. OP, I don’t know if you actually endorse the ideas in your first post, but if Street Fighter’s execution is a problem, then there are other games that cater for you. Rather than dumbing down Street Fighter’s execution, I think a better solution would be better training modes, tutorials etc. and new players need to somehow be encouraged to understand the game and be told that if they want to be ok, they’re going to have to practice a bit.
/what’s probably already been said.
I remember reading an article on Combovideos.com com. Hold on… I’ll link the thread.
http://combovideos.com/forums.php?m=posts&q=3628
Ignoring his beef with SFIV; he mentions something about the hypest moments being comebacks that precise execution with a degree of finesse. I think that’s the greatest reward for any fighting is the technical input that combines precision and finesse.
here’s a good example… currently im trying to do vega’s super. it shows to charge back, forward, then up and kick, then punch when close… this just isnt working.
anyone mind telling what it is? and what the easiest way to do it is?
its not even funny that you have to ask anyone what anything is for this game… it should be explained for you in a tutorial.
every time i try i get either his attack during off the wall, or the izuma drop (when i dont get NOTHING that is). it never does his super. this is the best point of shit not being clear to new players i can find currently.
Countering is done with one button and a directional input, there are 3 heights of attacks to counter(4 because mid punch and mid kick have their own input), each height having a different directional input. Attacks not corresponding with the counter input and especially throws kill counters. They’re not exactly easy to land, unless you know the height of your opponents strings. Which takes knowledge, execution, and a little luck.
I don’t know where you got “charge back, forward, then up and kick”, since that’s simply wrong. The motion is charge DB, DF, DB, then either UB (go to the wall behind Vega) or UF (go to the front wall) + K, then P when you’re close. It’s actually the easiest of the double Somersault charge motions to perform, even in ST when the same motion for Guile was a bitch.
This isn’t to say that the motion is particularly easy since it’s not in the grand scheme of things. It’s perfectly indicative that Ono, while stating that he wanted to make SFIV more accessible, was still only going to do so within the context of a Street Fighter game. If he really wanted to make SFIV completely accessible, SFIV would have a vastly revamped (and completely unrecognizable) control scheme like punch, kick special button.
well im looking at the character moves for vega in hd remix… and the motion that im seeing doesnt even come close to looking like downback, downforward, downback, then upsomething kick then punch. this is what im talking about, the game does a shitty job at telling people how the hell a move is done.
another thing. all it tells me to do is press punch when close, but it seems that pushing a direction when close is about the only way to make him do the izuma drop/super.
one thing i think that would’ve helped immensely is if he didnt use the stupid curved arrows or the fucking Z shaped shit when trying to list out the moves. all they do is confuse people. just use single arrows for every single movement.
It wouldn’t be as exciting to watch.
Also, reverse dragon punches are annoying. “No, don’t wall cling! Teleport, damnit, teleport!”
Alright here’s my 2 cents as someone who isn’t great at the current inputs.
I used to play guilty gear on PS2, and Xbox online, I was an ok player but nothing special. I never had too much trouble doing the moves in this game, perhaps the inputs were easier or I sucked back then too and I cant remember now. The point is I used to be fine with it, it never used to bother me. I was never a fan of the Capcom/SNK fighters because they didn't seem as easy to just pick up and play, and they just weren't as flashy as gg.
Well with the release of SF2 HD I thought I better put aside my irrational hate and invest some time in SF2T. It seems however that I can not just pick up and play this game, in fact I tried, threw it down again, swore at it, picked it up again and instead of playing it, I had to just sit down and practice.
Obviously some of the reason I suck is to do with the inputs. I have trouble doing Guile's Special for example, and even his sonic booms were difficult for me at first. Your all scoffing I'm sure, and you have a right... However I think a lot of you are probably playing with arcade sticks. I'm certainly going to get one now, I'm tired of jumping or crouching when I press d-pad backwards with a slight tilt, or charging a sonic boom and sliding forward, only to hit an up or down button on the way there. My thumb is callused and the more callused, the better I get at grinding plastic d-pad nubs into my flesh, his special is easier for example.
Considering that the game seems to be about strategy and timing almost as much as being able to pull off certain moves, it would be nice to put aside the input problems and focus on the rest of the game. This isn't going to work for the majority who don't have as much time as I do to sit around and practice. The majority also don't have arcade sticks, and already paid a ton for a next gen console, me included. It's taking a lot of practice to pull these moves off with a d-pad, and I don't think ill ever be able to pull off M. Bisons Special with out a joystick.
I bet we will see the controls for fighting games change, at least to suit either d-pads as the best means of input or even crazier, the analog sticks. It could change the genre for the better, or water it down into Super Smash Brothers. We will see, in the meantime ill keep practicing with the PS3 controller and you guys can get some easy wins in ranked matches.i thought this was a thread about discussion about street fighter, not “complain about moves you have trouble doing”.
i hope people arent complaining about the inputs just because they can. like, they practice a bit, go “WAAAGH this is hard”, and complain using “those poor new players” to deflect suspicion. i wonder if these hypothetical people who clearly do not exist in this thread also complained when they were learning to ride a bike. “fuck this bike makers need to go balance their shit because nobody will want to ride bikes if they have to waste a lot of time learning how to not fucking fall off”.
(yeah i know i used that before im not feeling all that creative right now.)
everything fun that isnt a pure mental activity has some sort of execution requirement. i guess games are just easy to complain about without getting laughed at.
not saying everyone who thinks the inputs are dumb or w/e dont have a point, because they do, but i get a feeling people are not reading stuff (the good posts, not the crap im writing) because “but no, they dont understand because they can already do everything!” well, my execution sucks ass. i hate it when i know exactly what to do but i keep fucking up. i hate spending 75c on a game of street fighter 4, playing my zangief against a player i tend to lose to all the time, getting a chance to win, and losing because i did low jab instead of green hand or jumping whateverthefuck instead of SPD. as annoying as this is, i realize this is MY problem, because i put in minimal practice and thus i get what i earned.
I’ll admit there are some memorable fighting game moments that are execution based, but the game is still a game about outsmarting someone. If the greatest reward you get from a fighting game isn’t outsmarting someone, but just doing some sick combo, I think you’ve missed the point. I’m not one to dictate how someone enjoys the game, but I’d hate for SF to take the direction of a game that rewards execution more than strategy.
Casual gamers don’t want to practice a video game. Casual gamers control the market. Most games are going to be made with that in mind. Since the majority of gamers are casual and own a next gen console, then it makes sense to think that eventually we will see fighting games either die, or be built for the ground up with dual analog stick controllers in mind. Fuck, Nintendo already tried with it Smashbros, and it was a massive success. Like it or not, it’s probably the future.
SF isn’t a console game. I don’t understand why people always throw SF into the context of the American gaming market, and make these statements of fact based on the American gaming market. The success of the console SF4 remains to be seen, but in general, SF, and fighting games don’t have to, nor intend to appeal to American casual gamers, and they are successful. It’s silly for us to play import copies of all these games, then make arguments about how these games will die because casual gamers aren’t playing them.
I disagree with this statement. What “import copies” are we all playing? As far as the SF series goes, before this year the last SF game released was in 1999. You make it sound like a ton of fighters are coming out in steady supply, and we can’t keep track of all of them (to be fair, this year has seen the announcement/release of a lot of 2D fighters, but since 2000 it hasn’t been this way). In fact, I suspect SF4’s main target for profitability is on the console.
Also, just how “successful” are they, really? 3rd Strike, besides being (arguably) one of the better 2D fighters ever made, was poorly received in terms of sales. On SRK, we see things differently because we’re a close-knit community of enthusiasts, but the sales/reception is clear. I bet Capcom didn’t continue the SF brand for 8 years because they were concerned about profit margins on games; SF4 is a bit of an experiment, and they’re trying to hedge as many bets as possible by bringing back old-school fighters, taking out so-called “complex” systems like parrying, and so on. It just so happens that a lot of us are old-school and also agree with these changes to varying degrees, but Capcom’s logic for making these moves is targeted to expanding SF4’s userbase. I’m not sure how “successful” fighting games in their current state really are.
The market is a LOT different today than it was back in 2004, or 1999/2000, and certainly since ST in the mid 90s. Games are incredibly expensive to make, and gamers have an unhealthy amount of options to fill their limited gaming time. There will always be the hardcore audience that laps it up, but they are shrinking in numbers and the cost to make the game is rising. If the barrier to entry is so high, SF games can basically kiss a huge percentage of the market share goodbye. People aren’t looking for a game that makes them frustrated at the very foundation. They have 20 other “feel-good” games that give them instant gratification. Only a few will be willing to stick it out if they can’t get past the initial control phase.
As I said before, making a niche game for your hardcore fans used to be much easier and more viable. In today’s market, I’d wager it’s nearly impossible. It doesn’t help that arcades are almost non-existent in most areas now (so much so that Capcom isn’t even releasing a US SF4 arcade). Where are they going to make their money then? Consoles. And they had this planned from day one, with the inclusion of all these new characters. It’s so much more than simply an afterthought… a mere port of the arcade version with an options screen and a training mode. The console version of SF4 is the definitive version, and I think it’s reasonable to assume that Capcom’s main goal, then, is to make more money off the console release than the arcade release!
(To mention other posts, I 100% agree that training videos, or “how to play” videos, should be a main focus of fighting games. I loved Smash Bros 64’s how to play screen. It was informative, and told you a lot about how the game is played. Melee and Brawl’s screens were much less informative, and went by too fast for anyone to take anything out of them. One good way to bring in newcomers to the franchise is to hold their hand a bit as they learn the controls. This isn’t the NES/SNES era, where masochistic gamers want extra challenge and punishment. I think a training mode that steps them through how to do specials, supers, and basic 2-hit combos, with a “here, now you try” step, would go a long, long way. It’s a shame it’s almost certainly not going to happen for SF4.)
EDIT - I also want to add that I appreciate everyone being civil and discussing this matter without flaming or stupid remarks. I had my doubts it was possible. Faith… in humanity… slightly… rising…
Gee, I forgot how popular 2d fighters are. I guess that’s why we’ve been playing the same shit for 7+ years. 
There’s a reason SSBM had a huge community built around it despite having very little cross-over from the traditional 2D/3D fighter crowd.
I’ve been saying it for a while since STHD came out. The reason Smash brothers could get away with a simple how to demo at the begging was because from the start they made every character nearly identical. If you take away everyones outfit and just have a basic wireframe, everyone is still going to play exactly the same, they all have :l: :u: :d: :r: smash attacks, all have B special in those directions. Then they all have block and grab. you dont see the complicated inputs you do for these other games like Guilty Gear or street fighter. GG to me falls into the same boat as SF, it doesnt do a great job of explaining how things are done, although i dont recall it having crazy Z motion’d moves that are un-determinable from the ingame move lists. I think they rushed STHD a bit, they got the gameplay where they wanted it, then threw the rest together and pushed it out. they should’ve held back and polished a bit more of it up before throwing it out there. and even if it were planned for later, a PROPER tutorial for each character would help greatly for new players.