Is Mika worthy of a nerf?

Street Fighter V R.Mika
21

Because in each category the character waking up has options that cover fewer and fewer offensive options and/or cost more resources. You can assume that ALL of these reversals have an appropriate punish if they are read and baited.

Meterless DP:
Beats all throws, attacks, and projectiles, for no meter. Clearly the best.

EX “DP”:
Beats all throws, attacks, and projectiles, for 1 bar. Clearly the 2nd best.

…the stuff in the middle is subjective, blah blah blah just ranked things based on the number of options and amount of resources needing to be spent.

EX 3-Frame Armour (2nd worst):
Loses to all true meaty timings, loses to early throws, only beats opponents playing with loose attack or throw timings on wakeup, for 1 bar. Not very good.

Worst (Vega):
Loses to everything. Block, tech, or s.lk if you want to call-out an improperly timed offense.

These aren’t tiers relative to Mika. They’re tiers based on the overall effectiveness of each character’s best options. Top tier reversals beat the most options for the least resources, and the lower down on the list you are you either a) have to spend more resources to access moves with good reversal properties, or b) have reversals that only cover one or two options, but lose to something else.

22

Yes let’s nerf a mid/low tier character. :expressionless:

23

shes #1 right now

24

Nope, she requires a brain to use. Especially against sim or bison. Believe it or not you literally have to dissect the other guy in order to progress.

25

In the Gamefaq/Steam/Eventhubs tier list? Lol.

26

I have 0 problems against bison
then again im just super silver so

on whirlstar tier list

27

Not sure if '16er is troll, or just '16er.

Nobody is #1 right now. This game is too young for attempts at over-all character tier lists to have any meaning - emergent properties of the meta-game haven’t come out yet, match-ups aren’t well understood.

That’s all I have to say on it, really. This is a pointless discussion.

28

Good thing he stuck with Sim to win NextLevel, the non #1 char. B)
CFN is 90% bad players.

29

wheres your proof?

so its not a mika list? then why is it here? i am talking specifically about mika, you’re talking about some meaty wakeup metagame

And since you’ve revealed this info to me, I will fix your tier list for Mika users:

Best Wake-Up Tier (meterless fully-invincible attacks aka Characters with a DP):
Ryu, Ken, Cammy, Necalli

Second Wake-Up Tier (EX fully-invincible attacks):
Rashid(EX Spinning Mixer), Karin (EX QCB+PP)
and
Dhalsim (teleport is a meterless strike and projectile invincible escape - loses to throws)

Third Wake-Up Tier (EX Invincible Escapes):
M. Bison (EX Headstomp, not exactly an attack for wake-up purposes)

Fourth Wake-Up Tier:
F.A.N.G. (EX Command dash) (EX Projectile and Strike invincible escape)
and
Birdie (EX Bullhorn) (EX Frame 1 Armour attack)

Fifth Wake-Up Tier (EX Frame 3 Armour attack):
Laura (EX Elbow), R. Mika (EX Peach)

Worst Wake-Up Tier (no armor or invincibility properties on any specials/EX specials, only CA option):
Vega (literally nothing but CA)

Not Sure Where To Put Them Tier:
Nash (terrible except for V-Trigger which is fully invincible from the 3rd frame)
'Gief (has a third frame armour EX and also I’ve READ that his V-Trigger activation is invincible on frame 1? I haven’t tested this so I can’t pass judgement)
Chun-Li (EX SBK), can trade/beat

30

No offense Oily, but I’m not sure what you’re missing here. Something went over your head and we just aren’t communicating properly. I don’t think I can add anything of value other than what I already said. At this point either I’ve made myself understood, or I haven’t.

As for “why is it here” - HanDred_Fist said Chun and Mika are both tied for worst wake-up options in the game. This is objectively not true at all, and in the process of showing my reasoning for why I posted information I’d gathered on the entire cast and how I thought their wake-up reversals measured up against each other. It emerged organically in this discussion. That’s “why it’s here.”

Geez, what are you, the thought police?

Edit:
Dude, wtf with moving Chun around? NOTHING Mika has can trade with/beat a reversal EX SBK, it is 100% invincible vs. everything for 8 frames! All you can do is punish it late, same with Rashid and Karin. I really think you don’t understand what’s being discussed here. Chun is EXACTLY THE SAME as Rashid and Karin for the purposes of this discussion. I don’t know how/where you’ve been mislead, but for some reason you’re just not getting it.

31

Others have disagreed with you. I am not the only one.

You put up a tier list and accuse someone who opposes it of being the thought police. Keep it classy.

If you don’t think Mika can trade or beat a SBK, you need to reread my comments. Again, my post is for Mika players, yours is for Meaty Wakeup something or other.

32

Yes, HanDred disagreed with me and I explained why and how he was wrong. I accused you of being the “thought police” because you actually questioned why I posted this at all if it wasn’t specific to Mika. So, when you’re saying to someone “pff, why even post that here” then, yeah, you’re kinda being the thought police. That’s not a ‘stay classy’ moment. Seriously, reflect on that for a minute.

Look, you’re free to do with this information what you will, but I strongly disagree with the position that Chun is any worse off than Rashid or Karin even if we are using the explicit frame of reference of R. Mika’s match-up vs. those characters.

I asked you a question many posts ago that would have resolved this completely if you had taken a moment to read and answer it, but you just never addressed it.

If you have a satisfactory answer to that, amazing. I’d love to know what it is. Otherwise, you really haven’t made a point here.

I don’t know why, exactly, but this conversation has become much more drawn out than it should have been, or needs to be. I’ve really tried to make my point, and while I don’t have an issue with people disagreeing with me, nobody has given an actual, credible, objectively true REASON for why Chun is worse off vs. Mika than the other two characters we’ve discussed.

If you have a compelling reason you’d like to share (a specific, detailed one), then I’m very interested in hearing it. Simply put, you haven’t provided one, so this conversation on my end feels like it has devolved into…:

Me: Here are the reasons I think I’m right.
You: You’re wrong.
Me: Why? Maybe you missed something, let me expand.
You: You’re wrong.
Me: What am I wrong about?
You: You’re wrong.

As much fun as this has been, I’ve got to punch out here because we’re just not connecting.

33

you said it’s not for mika, so why post here? wouldn’t you rather get reddit karma or something? An eventhubs article? shoeyuken general page fame?

That’s not thought policing, that’s common sense.

It’s not a conversation. I said very early on this was my opinion, and you don’t seem to understand that. Just as your tier list is your opinion. Mika doesn’t have to respect an ex SBK. This is important knowledge for R. Mika players.

34

I am female btw. Also yeah I agree you both aren’t clicking at all its probably best to end your conversation here. Want to keep things civil and communal here right?

To add to your data b4k4 I am fairly sure I have crush countered with a meaty set up. Do you know when her invincibility frames end? Cuz maybe it wasn’t meaty like I thought it was but no blocking was necessary. Also did you consider what I mentioned about the predictability and throw range stuff? I’m interested in your thoughts about that.

35

Sorry to default to assuming male pronouns. Patriarchy and all that, but also English doesn’t really give us a satisfactory gender-neutral third person pronoun so you kind of just have to make an arbitrary choice. My bad.

As for when the invincibility frames end, it isn’t until well after EX SBK is into its active hit frames (invincible for 8, starts hitting on 5), so if you’re trying to do any kind of meaty OR throw setup on their wakeup, EX SBK will beat both cleanly, every time. I actually did try your c.rh suggestion (or at least, what I thought you meant when you suggested it, which is to say I tried timing c.hk to hit Chun at the same moment she was rising from the knockdown) and tested it for a while before deciding it didn’t work. The c.rh kept sliding under the EX SBK, not hitting at all, and then getting hit in recovery by the EX SBK, which stays active for quite a while. If you wait for the EX SBK to enter recovery, or stay out of its range and then attack late, you can definitely CC it. That said, if you did that, you were respecting the EX SBK because you weren’t just getting in their face and playing throw/strike 50/50s, which was my point.

As for throw ranges and predictability, that really wasn’t taken into account. Predictability isn’t a property of the character, it’s a property of the player, so I think that’s a separate conversation entirely. People have habits/patterns, and you either try to recognize and exploit them, or you condition them into becoming predictable by making them think you have a recognizable pattern, and then changing it once you feel they’ve adapted. Throw ranges didn’t enter into my thinking at all. As I said, I was really just doing a high-level summary of the best (non-CA) wake-up reversal each character had at their disposal, and then trying to categorize them based on their properties. It didn’t go any deeper than that.

36

Yeah english is finicky like that lol.

https://youtu.be/MIq81XnMapQ?t=2m2s

Here is some testing I did for a friend awhile back that I uploaded for you. We were testing her different wake up options so a lot of this is long boring and a little bit of execution practice but I put it at the time interval relevant. This hit doesn’t look like it is getting her recovery frame, but idk. It is weird if the attack is invincible at frame one like you said. This might be a bug on Capcom’s part as personally on a game design level she shouldn’t be able to be punished like that especially by a grappler. So ‘I submit the evidence’ (or w/e I just wanted to use a Phoenix Wright meme.)

Mmm, my point was more so that I don’t really feel she has options to BE unpredictable with, but alright. Yeah its a separate conversation.

37

That is… actually really interesting and strange. That must be a really tight timing window, because I tried for a while and couldn’t produce that result. I’m taking off for now but I’ll look into it again later tonight.

Your objection is sustained. (I never played Phoenix Wright, amidoingitrite?)

That said, I still don’t know if I like using c.hk against downed opponents because the risk/reward ratio is really bad. If you predicted the reversal but they just blocked, you’re going to have a really, really bad time for guessing wrong. If you expect SBK, I still think it’s better to bait them and block -> f+hp CC or go to PP if you don’t think you’re close enough. The pay-off is better and the risk is minimal.

38

On paper, b4k4 is correct both in terms of the “quick and dirty wake-up tier list” and what “invincible reversal” usually means in SF games. On paper Chun’s ex.sbk is 5f start-up with 1-8f fully invulnerable, thus it is identical to ex.ressenha and ex.mixer (Karin and Rashid) as a reversal option. However, perhaps there is something funky going on with her hurtbox during those first 8 frames - testing required.

Also, it should be noted that ex.ressenha is only (only, hah) invulnerable for 1f-5f (startup is 5f) and ex.mixer is invulnerable for 1f-9f (startup is 8f). Any kind of “stuffing” that can be applied to Chun can also be applied to Karin and Rashid - obviously angles are the problem then though.

At least all of this off-topic discussion is happening in a throw-away thread :wink:

39

I’m with b4k4 on this. EX SBK is played around exactly like an EX wake up like Karin and Rashid. There is this 1 character specific caveat, but I don’t think that invalidates the listing. The caveat is the hardest of hard reads, and I feel it won’t hold up as player skill and game knowledge fills out.

The pressure doesn’t feel right to me either… People would go into an invul move when they feel pressured. For the c.hk to work you have to space yourself far enough away that the ex sbk would wiff if you didn’t slide. I don’t feel a Chun player would ex sbk in this situation. This is similar to Mika’s Body Slam which can beat ex sbk with specific timing, but a good chun won’t do the timing wrong… So in the lower levels it works, but as player skill and knowledge progress the tool becomes less useful, and more risky.

For instance - cross up body slam has been a big move while I was getting to silver. When I play against anyone over silver I get punished hard for it, and get very little reward. It’s a bad move I need to remind myself to not do. Better to never learn it in the first place.

40

Exactly, exactly…