Two combos in particular.
The Honda Splash into lvl1 Headbutt super in this video:
http://sonichurricane.com/media/cvs2xtra04.html
The Guile Sonic Boom into FK super on this page:
http://sonichurricane.com/notebook/cvs2whiffrapid01.html
Anyone tried these? Does anything feel weird about these instances? I’m starting to think there are some overlooked intricacies in the way charge works.
What kind of intricacies could you mean. I haven’t tried the honda one but I did the guile one I couldn’t see anything to special. Maybe something about how the game stores charges?? But I wouldn’t think it would be anything to different from any other capcom game.
And I doubt it’s something with charge times because that’s the same in all capcom games isn’t it. They count the charges by frames but because of the lenient input system you can charge for things before actually having the first move start. Like with multiple urien tackles in 3s or Bison’s scissor kick to super psycho crusher. What other intracies could you be thinking of??
I’m thinking the charge time on CvS2 is 1.5 seconds and not the full 2 seconds like on the old SF2 games. That’s enough time to do combos like Guile’s Corner J.Fierce - S.Fierce - Fierce Sonic Boom - S.Far Fierce - Sonic Hurricane. If the charges were the same with all Capcom games, then Bison’s Scissor to Super Psycho would also work on CFE, but it doesn’t.
How about charge partitioning? Doesn’t that apply to CVS2 as well?
My theory: For Honda combo, charge DB, then go to UB + punch for Splash, then move stick from UB back to B, then input Headbutt super.
Reasoning: Technically you’re considered “charging” a certain direction if it’s held down for a while. For example, if you keep crouch-blocking, walking backwards, and jumping backwards in random sequences without ever letting the stick leave Back, you still have your charge as long as you charged for however long you need to, even though you moved around like a retreating monkey on crack.
I guess this could apply to the Guile combo; I’m guessing you charged DB, then did DF+P for Sonic Boom while still retaining the charge for his Flash Kick Super, then finished the Flash Kick Super motion to get it off. I’m not entirely sure though…
Conclusion: I’m guessing the charge engine in this game might be more lenient than I thought though I’d say GGXX is the most lenient, especially with those crazy Venom ball pressure stuff, since it’s easy as hell to do stuff like FRC Horizontal Pool Ball right into Vertical Pool Ball in one smooth motion, while still retaining a charge for the next Pool Ball attack…
you must charge Db for Guile’s flash kick super…the sonic boom after the lv2 needs to input as charge back, toward, then dB+P…there should be ample time to charge for the lv1 that way…its just a matter of sheer speed and accuracy at that point.
Take Blanka, charge down-back, then hit down-forward and fierce. He slides. He will not do a ball unless you hit forward on the joystick.
One thing you can do is this: charge, then quickly wiggle the stick to forward and then back to charge. Now hit a button, the special will come out, and you already have a few frames of charge. If you want to do scissor kick xx MPC, this is what you need to do.
Heh, i’d forgotten about this thread. The whole point of it was to expose some misconceptions in the generally accepted theory of how charge works. In fact, there are a number of contradictions just within the half dozen replies in this thread so far. What i have to say is nothing big, but it might be fun for the game engine explorers.
Before we begin, everyone open up kysg’s little CFJ Nool/Hydron video. If you don’t have it, i’m going to host it for the next three days for the sake of this discussion:
http://lowfierce.com/ztemp/kysg.cfj_nool.mpg
The video is just basically Ingrid/Guile/Ryu throwing a projectile at Hydron/Nool. Then Hydron does his D+HK long-range tentacle sweep. The other guy does a knockdown move (DP or Shinsho or whatever) that hits Hydron’s limb just as the projectile hits Hydron’s body, and since both hit simultaneously the knockdown is nullified. This shouldn’t surprise anyone since i’ve put that effect into like four of my combos already, and since TZW was using it since forever.
One of these things that he does is with Guile throwing LP Sonic Boom, then doing HK Flash Kick to hit the tentacle as the Sonic Boom hits Hydron’s body. So he basically gets a 2-hit Sonic Boom + Flash Kick combo with no knockdown. The weird part is that before he does the Sonic Boom, Hydron whiffs his D+HK tentacle sweep and Guile does c.MP xx LP Sonic Boom to start this whole clip off.
So the question of the day is, why is that c.MP there?
The counter-hit cr.mp simply allows for more charge time. The charge time gained is roughly equivalent to the time frame between the mp actaully coming out, and the startup of the sonic boom. So basically the sonic boom comes out a bit later than it would if thrown out by itself, and its delayed long enough for the flash kick to charge, making the combo possible. Another way to think of it is: if the mp adds 20 frames of charge time for example…theoretically this combo would be entirely possible without the mp if the sonic boom traveled slower and arrived 20 frames later, given the same charge system were intact. How does that relate to the original topic at hand? Ill post that later.
I think if guile didn’t use the c.MP he would have been swept, and thus unable to sommersault kick.
Also if he just charged and fired off a sonic boom the timing would interupt the sonic boom and guile would be knocked down.
Also c.mp is the only move that combos a flash kick and sonic boom to my knowledge.
As far as the topic goes I’m more interested in the first entry because I can not figure out how to use st.lk in a combo without using a jumping knee.
The point, I would say, has to do with that.
I think TVS’ explanation is pretty close to the way it works, but it’s kind of tough to judge by the wording.
Here’s the basic dilemma. (Most of these examples are going to be from CFE because i had access to frame data in that game, but i don’t see any reason for it to be different from CvS2 or even from older Capcom games.)
If you charge down with Chun Li, then do Lightning Legs, you lose the SBK charge. There’s a hard-coded rule that the same charge can not be used for two moves. In fact, doing any special move resets charge. There are exceptions, as with SSF2T Balrog but those were generally specific to that game.
The problem is in the way people think of minimizing charge time. Most people seem to think that if you want Guile to do two Sonic Booms as close as possible to one another, you should charge DB, then tap F, then quickly go back to DB and hold it for as long as possible before hitting the punch button. The idea is that you get to “recharge” for the next Sonic Boom before you even do the first one. But that’s clearly not possible because charge is reset as soon as you hit the punch button. It’s good to be holding DB when you do hit the punch button, so that you start charging IMMEDIATELY after, but that’s the best you can get.
Now, there’s this other principle in play. Every attack causes a specific amount of hit freeze. In CFE, most light attacks cause 9 frame hit freeze, medium attacks cause 11 frame hit freeze, and hard attacks cause 13 frame hit freeze. So in that kysg Guile vs Hydron clip, he charges DB, then hits Hydron’s limb with c.MP and as soon as the punch connects, he taps F+LP to do the Sonic Boom and then immediately goes back to DB. The Sonic Boom is considered to have been executed as soon as he pushes the punch button, but it doesn’t come out until after the 9 frame c.MP hit freeze. So if he’s precise enough, he can shorten the charge period between the Sonic Boom and the Flash Kick to maybe 53 frames instead of 60 frames.
This really comes into play in a LOT of combos, because of course the type of hits landed inbetween charge moves affect charge time. Another thing it means is that doing hard attacks in the middle of combos actually gives you more charge time than doing light attacks, because there’s more charge time due to more hit freeze.
Anyway, i just wanted to get all this out there in case anyone cares enough to get all the facts straight about how charge works.
thx, I did not care before, but I do now. :tup:
I tried the butt splash combo…it wasn’t easy and I couldn’t get the whole thing. What strength do I use for the butt splash, lk?
RagingStorm101: It’s MK splash, and i think that’s written in the guide on my site. Actually, that combo might be legit without tricks. Doing the command a little early helps maximize charge time, but it doesn’t “create” any extra charge time. According to the CvS2 guide, Honda’s MK splash has 64 frames total plus a bunch of hit freeze frames, which should be enough charge time. The timing was just difficult. Sorry, my mistake. I’m not omniscient and it’s really difficult to judge the difference between “difficult” and “extraordinary” when the line between the two is a couple of frames one way or the other.
The Guile clip is definately using this phenomenon though. According to the guide, Guile’s Sonic Boom is 43 frames total (and since it’s a projectile, it causes no hit freeze of its own). Going frame by frame in the video, Guile’s Sonic Boom takes 18 video frames. So that means every video frame (using my capture hardware) at default CvS2 speed equals 2.39 frames.
In the video, the whole period starting with the first frame of the Sonic Boom up until the last frame before the FK super is 26 video frames. 26 * 2.39 = 62 frames. There’s no fucking way in hell i can do a FK super in 2 frames. I figure on a good day, maybe i can get it in 7 frames.
The last hit of the lvl2 rush super causes 6 video frames of hit freeze. 6 * 2.39 = 14 frames of hit freeze (that’s a lot). So if you assume i missed the mark a bit and got 9 frames of charge time out of that hit freeze, that’s still 71 frames in between the Sonic Boom command and the FK super. I was actually getting that FK super to juggle one out of five times towards the end of the session. One out of five is what i consider easy. I could feel the last hit of the lvl2 rush super causing a lot of hit impact, and i had a gut feeling that it had a part in making the combo feasible, but i could never quite explain it before.
I never noticed this, but there are no super bars in the screenshots in the guide. They must have used that Extra Options setting to turn them off, which is kind of thoughtful of them to do. Heh.
Good question, too bad nobody asked that. No, there’s nothing wrong with my capture hardware. Obviously i do all my combos at default CvS2 speed, which is Speed 3 in the options menu. All of the Japanese CvS2 Guide frame data must be quoted using the base CvS2 speed, which is Speed 1. As with CFJ, higher speeds must skip frames.
There are 30 video frames per second. Each video frame represents 2.39 base CvS2 frames. Thus, Speed 3 cycles through 72 base frames per second. Since only 60 frames are shown on the television, that means 12 frames skip for every 60 frames shown. That means every for every 5 frames shown, 1 frame is skipped. So, Speed 3 is 20% faster than Speed 1.
The only strange thing about this is that in Speed 3 on CFJ skips 1 frame per every 4 frames shown. Therefore, CFJ Speed 3 is 25% faster than Speed 1. Does it feel faster to you guys?
Dee Jay could do it in A3 too. Stupid ass projectile, thank goodness he’s console only.