Let’s try to have a thread focused on which items SHOULD be allowed which presently aren’t. No discussion of “ooohh, items should be banned and SWF>SRK” bullshit. Straight up “I think X item that was banned from Evo should be brought back” kind of stuff. Personally, thhe main three items I think should be brought back are:
Assist Trophy: The assist trophy is dangerous to use for several reasons, and is by no means over-powered (especially since many of them don’t even have KO abilities). Once you pick it up, you can’t use it unless you’re on the ground. If you’re hit, you can’t use it until hitstun passes. And you have to recover a bit after using it. Definitely not overpowered, IMO.
Pokeball: In 1v1, the Pokeball isn’t all that lethal. Even the best pokemon are no huge threat.
Curry: What’s with all the curry hate? Is it just because it’s annoying? It’s not like it’s over-powered. And it’s not like it can even kill you. For the user…it makes it impossible to edge-guard, it makes it impossible for them to approach bombs, crates, capsules, etc. Granted, these downsides are small compared to the upside, but I don’t think it’s so massively powerful to warrant a ban.
And depending on the criteria:
Starman: If having a “counter” is the criteria for an item to not be banned…then why is the Starman banned? Especially with the curry or hammers…the Star rocks them.
I think all items should be turned on if we are having items-on in the first place. If the criteria is broken, none of the items are broken. Stop trying to tailor the game to your own playstyle.
If one character is broken, the entire game is broken. Gotcha!
As for what items I feel need to be back in, I want to say assist trophy / pokeball but I understand why they were taken out. Fire and forget items that once activated can’t be stopped (yes they can be avoided) seem to go against what people want.
I meant if the criteria for taking out an item is brokenness, we shouldn’t be taking out any items because none of the items are broken. No item will guarentee a KO.
True, but I don’t see Wiz going completely no-items (but he could :rock:).
But this is meant to be a healthier version of the Beta Rules Discussion, so we can actually say which items we think should be added. Not just the ones I listed. So if anybody thinks the dragoon should be put in or whatever, post up!
I actually like the dragoon a lot. It has strategic elements pre and post spawn. The fact that dragoon pieces always spawns together lets the player prevent other items from spawning.
I’ve had games where I grab 2 of the pieces and just try to get that 3rd piece off the stage so it will be the next item spawn. I basically let the opponent get the 3rd piece and then try to knock it out of him near the edge of the stage and let the piece fall off.
If Smash Balls are allowed, then Assist Trophies and Poke Balls which are up there with the level of overpoweredness might as well be. The only difference is Smash Balls must be destroyed to be gained. Some Assist Trophies, like Lyn, guarantee a free KO just like certain Final Smashes.
Super Spicy Curry should be banned. One of the most broken items. If you can trap your opponent with it (not too hard), you can fully charge up a smash attack in addition to the dozens of % you’ll hit them with. The range is too good, it’s near impossible to get away from a good player with it.
Starman is 100% reward for 0% risk. It’s like the heart or maximum tomato.
I second the Dragoon. It’s very strategic and the war to get all the parts adds a lot to the fight. Not to mention when the player does get it, both are forced into a mindgame. The user has to try and catch the opponent at a vulnerable time and the opponent has to ‘fake’ the user into shooting at a bad time and missing.
I’d also like to see the Fire Flower. It seems odd to ban it because it’s not even really that good an item. The common argument I’ve seen is that it’s ‘easy edgeguarding’ but it doesn’t do that very well. Mainly what it does is just push them away from the edge a bit and they’ll inevitably fall down and grab it.
It’s pretty much a balanced version of curry- some zone control and damage with obvious setbacks (You can’t use it to say, set up a free charged F-Smash) and the opponent has ways around it.
I think the end result of the Dragoon’s removal had nothing to do with the item itself being problematic. Merely the property that while the Dragoon pieces are spawning, no other item will spawn. Also, until the Dragoon pieces are collected and used, Smashballs will not come into play.
Lynn is on the field for a specific amount of time, and once that time runs out, she attacks which can be dodged by any roll or dodge or, IIRC, some fast attacks. Free KO? Cmooooon.
It’s 100% reward…but how much reward is it? 10 seconds of invulnerability is nothing, and can be easily done away with by simply walking away from an opponent. And like I said, its main function should be acknowledged as one of being a direct counter to time-constrained powerups like the curry, mushroom, etc.
Come on don’t turn this into an arguement thread, correcting someone when they say a ‘free ko’ is one thing… but trying to defend the starman is counter productive.
I don’t see why Dragoon not allowing any other items until it is complete is an issue. Managing the Dragoon pieces to prevent item spawn is a task, and if you can manage that, then odds are you know your way around items. Using Dragoon to prevent item spawning is part of using items as strategy.
With Curry, AFAIK you can DI backwards out of range of most attacks.
How is defending starman counter productive? This is a debate to determine the feasibility of items in tournament play. I don’t see any problem with starman, it doesn’t give you a free KO, it doesn’t freeze your character, all it does is give you invincibility for a brief period of time. Nothing else. Most competent players can stall for 10 seconds to let the invulnerability pass.
I’m not too familiar with pokeballs, but I’m a little more versed with assist trophys. I do know that grabbing an AT with the opponent on the stage can get you KO’ed. I don’t see how any AT is better than some of the FS’s though.
I mean ok you have to press A for an assist trophy to go active. That’s a small price to pay to have waluigi stomp someone’s face in or have an andross gigantic full screen assist thing giving your opponent hell. Too much random “oh shit trophy spawned in front of me, now you have to spend 20 seconds running away”.
Same applies to the pokemon, and some of them are extremely lethal. Think about Metagross in the middle of a level, or half the other ones that can OHK you. They’re usually dodgeable by themselves, but with another player also trying to kill you, that becomes MUCH harder.
Curry, Curry is just broke. It’s like Rob’s final smash in item form. You get a free whatever you want once you get someone in it. IE forward smash from most characters. And getting someone in it involves…walking forward? That’s fair?
I’d suggest for the current items, getting rid of Smashballs and Baseball bats. Baseball bats aren’t for swinging. They’re for throwing. And that shit an KO at like 50%. Glide tossing just makes them way too good. Little risk for wayyyy too much reward. Smashballs well…I have yet to not get a kill when I got wolf’s landmaster. I have yet not to die to Sonic’s FS in 1v1. They’re really just too little risk for too much reward. Plus it encourages turtling to the maximum degree considering how much they spawn. That’s really all space animals have to do to win.
samx-you already said that same spheel about the smashballz in the IRC and it didn’t work there so why would you think it would have a chance here?
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Were gonna have some fun with this thang! :rock:*
