I have a question about chain-throwing. Suppose you’re one of the Shotos and you decide that it’s easier to block rather than reverse since it’s laggy or whatever. Let’s say that your opponent is T. Hawk or Zangief and they knock you down, then they decide to do this thing where they’ll do a meaty jump-in to force you into blocking and then immediately do a special throw / grab on you (SPD, Cyclone Hammer, Balrog Headbutt, Ken’s Knee Bash, etc.) rinse and repeat.
Supposing that reversing isn’t really a viable option because you have trouble timing it properly, is it possible to get out of that chain-throw situation at all? (E.g. Could I block the jumping meaty and then immediately reverse with a DP before they can initiate the special throw, or would you be stuck in it because of hit-stun?
casperone - block is an option against same characters, but not against others. T-Hawk and Zangief can put you in throw loops on wakeup if you can’t reversal (which as you admitted, might be harder than it should be due to lag), and people with longer throw range can throw loop those with shorter throw ranges.
I think a lot of people are complaining because reversals just aren’t coming out, and there’s no great way to tell if it’s your fault or due to latency, which gives certain characters an advantage. It’s kind of like when 3s was on the X-Box, and since parrying was iffy, Chun Li and Yun were the only people worth picking.
I agree, with online games, it’s just something you have to deal with, unfortunately, and if you want to capitalize on the lag, there are certain characters which would be to your benefit.
The original post, however, didn’t deal with latency issues (although it is definitely a valid point in the conversation) and I am generally speaking to that point.
Unfortunately, with online, you just have to take your chances (I play claw as a main, so I know all about trying to be lucky, given the rampant disconnect issues, bleh).
This puts renewed confidence in me reversing against meatys and against tick-throwing. It’s all a matter of practice and timing then I guess. I’ll just have to keep at it.
Question about doing the reversal right after block-stun. What’s the best way to do the reversal in that kind of situation? Is it simply pianoing the buttons like you would a normal wake-up reversal?
Yes, you basically have a single frame of animation to get the inputs in, which is why pianoing/drumming works better, it increases your chances by 6x (at least for the button presses).
“Just blocking” is NOT acceptable to me. I see someone jumping in on me or charging up a multi-hit move as I am getting up, why should I just block and let them have their chip damage or free throw/overhead/etc? They are vulnerable and I should have more than a random chance to capitalize. A jumping opponent is always taking the greater risk since they cannot block. Also, what if I can’t take any more damage? I have DP’d fireballs before when out of life in order to avoid them, but if that is my only option on wake-up then I am as good as dead. I can’t block at all in that situation and should not just let myself die.
Someone mentioned that wake-up reversal gives a large advantage, and that is simply not the case. If I am Ryu and I hit a jab DP on an attacking opponent while I am waking up, all I get is some damage and they are now knocked down. No huge combo, no big damage.
If the reversal window was consistent and most people could do them, it would keep people from jumping so much or attacking on wake-up since they would not know what to expect, and that’s just one more mind game to use. That mind game is not available though since most people know wake-up moves are a crap shoot, why would they not jump in all the time? Why would they not charge up that rolling multi-hit move if they have nothing to lose?
Finally, for me at least, the wake-up DP IS UNRELIABLE until someone who knows comes here and tells us that the move comes out 100% the same regardless of network delay/lag. I am not the first to notice it is much easier to hit reversals when playing locally.
No one is saying there is an input delay online. However, you have two machines over a network that are trying to constantly sync their state. Given that, it is completely possible that what you see isn’t the exact timing that your opponent input. This is what is going to mess up your timing, and the match in general.
Chip damage is something you can’t get away from if you block, but it is safer than the alternative, if you screw the reversal up.
However, free throws and overhead? That’s a separate situation entirely with a different set up matchups and responses. It’s also completely after the fact.
The fact of the matter is that if you block and it is not something that does chip damage, you do not put yourself in a situation that you can NEVER get out of. The rules of the game are set, griping about how they should be different is pointless, they are NOT going to change anytime soon.
I agree, and you have that chance. You have a 1/60th of a second window (one frame) to input the move. If you get the inputs within that window, your move is guaranteed.
If it is a move that has priority over the move that is being used against you at that point in time, then you will succeed (this is where damage-inflicting and damage-taking hitboxes come into effect).
None of this is random. It is a constrained set of rules which has been well established in this series for a very long time.
What is random is the ability to get these inputs into the system at the right time. That is why you have to master execution. If you aren’t getting the reversal then you either misjudged the situation (in the action you choose to take) or you didn’t execute the move properly.
They are taking a risk, but assuming the skill level between the two players is equal, the player jumping in is taking less risk, given that the window to execute their move correctly has a MUCH larger window than the person waking up.
If you can’t take anymore damage, then you can’t take anymore damage and you have to execute the reversal. The great thing here is that the game is consistent. You are just as likely to get the reversal in that situation than in any other situation (assuming you chose the right move for the reversal).
I mentioned it in a response to two posts (yours included).
You are right, you don’t get a combo, and you don’t get huge damage. But you agree that they are knocked down.
But that’s the key, because they are knocked down, they are now in the same situation that you were in, at the same disadvantage.
It’s at that point that you can make them work in the same constrained situation that you have issue with now. If that’s not an advantage, I don’t know what is.
As stated before, the window is consistent, it is just very small, and it is the inability of the player to execute that is not consistent.
There are people who can execute wake-ups with incredible consistency (look for some videos of Japanese players if you want an example). It’s not impossible.
I assure you that the people who you see jumping in on you all the time were to play someone who can wake-up consistently, you would see a much, much different approach.
I have already agreed to this point, that network latency will cause latency between what the two consoles are displaying, which in turn, will effect your timing on inputs. However, that doesn’t change the fact that the window will be one frame for reversal on wakeup.
It just might be that what you perceive to be the frame will be something completely different than what the other unit is saying the frame will be, and that’s where the problems arise.
Over in the Character balance thread there are a lot of people talking about how certain styles of play are only effective online, and offline things are a totally different story. I’m not the only person who has noticed this game has different properties when played online. Saying all aspects of the game are exactly the same 100% of the time isn’t correct for a lot of us.
I am done arguing this though. Apparently there are some people who pull off reversals 100% of the time and never get knocked down. They have perfect timing on every move. Good for them. Must be nice.
(E.g. Let’s say I try to do an air fireball with Akuma but my opponent nabs me with a jumping-short before I managed to pull it off. I get hit and I recoil, but the hit wasn’t damaging enough to knock me onto my back so my character recovers in mid-air to land on his feet. During this time, my opponent is already on the ground and advancing to my landing area in hopes of hitting me with a meaty attack when my feet touches the floor)
In this scenario, is it possible to reversal DP upon landing and completely avoid that meaty attack?
Any move that has invincibility within the hitting frames that are overlapping any meaty attack will beat that meaty attack upon contact.
In general, meaty attacks can be escaped (especially in the case of a meaty projectile) by reversal moves with invincibility. If the attacker is close enough…reversal moves with invincibility, reversal throws, and zero frame startup attacks that outprioritize the meaty attack will counter it.
Whether it’s getting up or recovering from air hit-stun, a meaty attack is a meaty attack and a reversal is a reversal. What is that? Reflexive property of equality, right? A=A and B=B?
