When you have one frame window, there is zero room for error or random-ness. Since there is inherent delay/lag when you play online, I wonder how the reversal window is handled by the game when playing an online match. This might make it even harder to pull off wake-up moves.
This is my biggest gripe with HD Remix. A knocked-down player is at a HUGE disadvantage if they cannot defend themselves from jump ins/ground pressure while getting up. I was playing a Vega player a few days ago and he rolled right into me as I was getting up. I saw it coming, I knew he was vulnerable, and the correct move for me was to wake-up DP. I tried (piano and all), missed the window, and he got his hits and I got dizzied. What should have happened is my DP should have come out and taken maybe 20% from him. Instead I get hit for good damage from the roll, then I got hit again since I was dizzied. That’s a HUGE damage differential just because I missed a 1-frame window. I could have blocked in that situation, but I should not be forced into blocking. This wasn’t a cross up. It was a generic attack that I saw a mile away but my wake-up DP didn’t come out.
The 1-frame reversal is probably timed during local matches. What’s the time for online matches?? It’s still one frame, but is that frame the same when network delay/lag is taken into account??
I find it hard to time the reversal online also. This is most frustrating for me when trying to stop a zangeif jab spd tick. But with properly timed meaty jump ins I dont even try for reversal anymore because of the fact mr humble stated vs Vega… That said i find most people time there jump ins too late and can still get punished by a wake up DP without a “reversal” actually coming out.
I had the impression the timing for reversals online was different depending on the network smoothing and my experience playing. It’d be nice to confirm it somewhere though.
I run into the same problem with Honda players. I know they’re going to headbutt me on wakeup, I prepare for it by pianoing a DP, nothing comes out and I get hit. I wake up from that, and…same deal. I get the reversal SOMETIMES, but not guaranteed.
I don’t want to block as I don’t want to take the chip damage, nor do I want him to have the advantage post block (depending on character), I WANT to reversal, but I’m at a huge disadvantage since all he has to do is press back then forward than punch, whereas I have to hit a split second window that I may or may not get.
And reversals tend to be a bit harder to do with DP reversal characters just due to the added motion and room for error in recognition there (chargers are pressing direction + button on wakeup as opposed to timing a multidirectional move).
Of course i guess I could play as Blanka or something.
I knew this thread would get interesting once we took into consideration the network smoothing/lag issues. I started the thread out of sheer frustration as i thought the timing of the game was different to the old games.
Can somebody who can hit 90%+ reversals enlighten us as to a) are we just moaning because we arent very good at timing these things and it will take years of practice or b) can the timing be off online due to latency/lag/network smoothing and are you having problems too?
I found that when I play online I can’t bust reversals for shit. But when I’m offline playing with my buddies, I’m bustin reversals left and right. I believe PSN is destroying online play for me.
I feel kind of strange about so many people feeling that they shouldn’t be at a disadvantage during knockdown. I’d like to know what (good) fighting game gives you an advantage for being knocked down.
The other thing that nobody is considering…yes, there is a risk involved. But at the same time, the opposing player is taking a risk as well if he decides to press the advantage. It comes down to outplaying your opp mentally because you both have options and counter options.
The window is tight for a reason. You should NOT have advantage on knockdown.
No, the knocked down person should not have an advantage. However, they should not be at such a terrible disadvantage either.
I should have more choices than to either block or take a 50/50 chance (if that) that my reversal will come out. If it does, I get some damage and the match is reset. If not, I could eat a TON of damage (and maybe a dizzy then the match is over).
There is no wake-up move that will start a deadly dizzying combo. It’s just a way to defend yourself when getting up besides blocking. The risk/reward is heavily in the standing player’s favor and that’s not right.
Also, here’s another thought. If I see someone jumping in as I’m getting up, that’s THEIR mistake and I have the right to counter. Same with Vega’s rolling attack. I see them charging it as I am getting up, I have the same right as they do to anticipate and punish it as I get up.
This is all moot though, since the wake-up isn’t reliable enough to use effectively. My opponents know after 2 knock downs that the DP isn’t coming out, so they press their advantage every time I get knocked down. Without that fear, I am at an even bigger disadvantage.
I am still waiting for an expert to chime in regarding how the wake-up window is handled when network delay/lag is take into account.
I have nothing to add other than to say that I’m glad (sorta) that it’s not just me.
I can do a reversal DP offline every single freakin’ time I want–no problem whatsoever with the 1-frame restriction. But online…yeah, a slight bit better than 50/50, and it’s positively, insanely MADDENING. I’ve lost so many matches because of it. And I’m not talking just one reversal-gone-bad per match, but SEVERAL.
Just one more reason why the PSN version needs some serious attention from Capcom.
I have a question Wake-up reversal DP’s can be stuffed by meaties, right? Say, I’m Ryu and I get knockdown by Dic and then he proceeds to do a well timed c.forward (so that the hitting frames hit Ryu) on my wake up and I try to do a reversal DP. I would think this would get stuffed all the time if the Dic player times it perfectly all of the time since Ryu’s DP’s start hitting on the 5th frame of the DP (all versions). On the other hand, If I were Ken and if I did a reversal Fierce DP, I would beat Dic’s meaty since it has 0 start frames… am I right or am I totally smoking crack here?
EDIT: I’m obviously basing this on ST frame data… since idk the frame data for HDR.
Getting stuffed depends on whether you have hit boxes, not when your attack boxes come up.
Ryu has no hit boxes for at least the first 4 frames of his DP, so even if he’s not attacking, he can’t get hit. He’s invincible during that time, even if the opponent has a meaty attack on top of him. Just because he’s not attacking doesn’t mean he can be hit.
I doubt wake-up DP’s can be stuffed by meaties because of the invincible frames. It’s possible to hit them after the invincible frames though.
I am trying to do wake up headbutts with Balrog and its about 50/50 online.
Offline I wreck ppl’s sh!t with them easily. Its the online component that hurts it.
Is there a way to fix this? They need to patch this game and fix the dropped connection ridiculousness and maybe add 3-4 frames for wake up moves for ONLINE ONLY to account for the latency issues.
Yeah, I’m fairly certain that wakeup DPs will beat out a meaty. It’s just that you have to be PERFECT on timing to beat it.
I wish I had someone decent to play against offline. My 9 year old son is up and coming, but it’ll be quite some time before he’s decent enough to give his old man a run =P.
I’ve never played a fighting game where the risk/reward of a fallen player is so bad besides this one, really. Normally, wakeup is paper rock scissors. For instance, in 3S, the paper rock scissors is essentially that I can wake up with a parry or wake up with a reversal (basically giving me a choice of rock or paper), whereas the attacker can attack, anticipate the reversal and parry, or anticipate a parry and throw. The attacker still has the advantage, provided he makes the right choice. In Virtua Fighter, I have a similar set of choices, only with counters. Also, you can affect your wakeup timing in both games.
In ST online, it’s essentially a game of paper/rock/scissors where half of the time when you pick scissors, the scissors are broken and your rock doesn’t hit as hard as the other person’s (since reversals are almost always just a knockdown hit in ST).
His complaint is valid, especially if it is the latency that is affecting the already ridiculously small window.
IMHO i am totally in agreement with the window for getting a wake up reversal. because if it was easier than you would never want to rush down your opponent. Now im not expert at the game ( my wake up ken dp’s only work maybe 70% of the time or they get baited out of me). but i totally agree with the system because you can also use it to your own advantage. The biggest thing is to keep practicing them, even if you lose matches by trying to practice your technique. Eventually you will get it and stuff a rushdown. Like the post a little further back said its all about the mindgames you play with your opponent and the benefits of trying to get a wake up reversal can far outweigh the risks if you become good at getting them in the situations where you need them.
I completely agree with this, and to elaborate, the opponent has a definitive advantage when you are knocked down, as they should, IMO.
But the other thing that people are forgetting is that you always have the option to block. Yeah, it’s not sexy, but it gets the job done most of the time. It’s low risk and low reward, but it’s safe and easy.
Remember that everyone in the game has a move (super or not) which has at least one frame of invulnerability. Because of this, you can’t just give characters carte-blanche when getting up to execute that move and always win in that situation, otherwise, the reward involved in doing the move would outweigh the risk, especially with a lower-risk alternative readily available.
And finally, the reward for pulling off the reversal is MASSIVE not just because you cancel their move and inflict damage on them, but because for the most part, those invulnerable moves are going to knock down the other player. This increases the need to increase the risk even more.
I could see the window being widened if the characters didn’t have invulerable frames in their animation, at which point, you would widen the window, and would trade damage depending on what hitboxes are available at the time.
I disagree simply because I’ve never seen a fight where someone is knocked to the ground and they don’t have the advantage. Even in larger scale battles, those who control the higher ground have the advantage.
That’s simply not true. If you input the sequence at the appropriate time, the move will come out, 100% of the time.
If the move doesn’t come out, then you didn’t get the timing right. That’s not by chance, that’s a function of your ability to execute.
Not at all. You can always block for minimal impact and it is the lowest-risk move in the game.
That is almost an absurd statement. The rights you have are given to you by the rules of the game, no more, no less. You choose to play it, you abide by it, you can’t change it, so you figure out what does and what doesn’t work.
Jumping in on someone is not a mistake (safe-jumps, see Sirlin’s videos for reference). However, if they choose to jump in on you, they are taking a risk, but not as much as you are in trying to reverse. There is no free-lunch here.
Assuming that you don’t have a safe jump, their risk is directly proportional to your ability to execute (either the reversal, or a block). If they succeed with a jump-in attack, it is directly related to one’s inability to execute (assuming you chose the right counter) combined with their ability to make the right decision in what to use to counter for the situation.
With all due respect, it’s not the move itself that is unreliable, it is the person executing it that is. Execution is a massive part of this game, and if you can’t execute on a consistent basis, then you won’t have one of the basic skills needed to be successful at this game.
I completely agree that due to latency issues inherent in network play, more variables are input into the equation than should be. I tend to be MUCH more defensive in online play than when someone is next to me because I know that what I see on the screen isn’t always going to be what is really going on.
It completely depends on the move you choose to reverse with. If the move has an initial frame where the person waking up doesn’t have any damage-taking hitboxes on them (they can’t be hit), then meaties will NOT beat out the reversal (e.g. Ken’s MP shoryuken). Of course, if they don’t have any damage-producing hitboxes on them, then they are just going to whiff. The frames are going to advance until someone gets hit (with each frame producing a different set of damage-taking and damage-producing hitboxes per frame).
Nope, you pretty much got it right. Since Ken’s damage-producing hitboxes exist on the first frame of the move, and he has no damage-taking hitboxes on the same frame, and dic’s leg has both damage-producing and damage-taking hitboxes, dic is going to take damage.
Wake-up reversal DP’s can be stuffed by meaties, right? Say, I’m Ryu and I get knockdown by Dic and then he proceeds to do a well timed c.forward (so that the hitting frames hit Ryu) on my wake up and I try to do a reversal DP. I would think this would get stuffed all the time if the Dic player times it perfectly all of the time since Ryu’s DP’s start hitting on the 5th frame of the DP (all versions). On the other hand, If I were Ken and if I did a reversal Fierce DP, I would beat Dic’s meaty since it has 0 start frames… am I right or am I totally smoking crack here?