Throw baits, footsies, combos.
Now, excuse me if I’m mistaken, but I believe the debate was between using TK JK, as in buffering the input on the ground before jumping, and what people have been calling IAJK (shouldn’t it just be an early air jaguar kick? Nothing about it is instant), which is jumping then inputting the qcb motion. You were talking about using just JK or IAJK (either form of it), and both should be used. One combos, one armor breaks.
Now, TVG said “I still stand by the good old jump, then QCB (iAJK). The best adon player does it like this and if you have some understanding of street fighter, reaction times and ground game you realise it’s superior in every aspect.” and I have a few problems with this. First of all, Adon’s been around for 3 months in super, so just because the best player at the North American tournament does or doesn’t do something doesn’t mean that it’s the best thing to do. I believe he got so far on his ability to yomi the opponent and keep pressure on, not simply because he could perform every technical feat with Adon.
No one can really say which method is better right now, and for you to say 'if you have some knowledge of sf, you’ll realize it’s better in every respect" is an open insult, which I don’t believe you have properly backed at all in your previous posts. I say this because I remain unconvinced, but feel free to convince me now by answering a few questions I have:
What is wrong with inputting the motion before jumping, could you not buffer it during a block string or jump or on wake-up? I had assumed you could but perhaps I’m wrong.
Sorry for any undue offense, this is all simply to my current understanding of the situation.
I’ll try my best to make it clear, because I really think it’s clear to anyone but sometimes you are not in people’s heads to see what they are making out of what you’re saying. Plus my english is decent but a little over the place sometimes.
The difference between both, assuming perfect execution on both, is the difference between a 1 button move and a QCF move. Now imagine, say, fireballs, or SRK being 1 button. Wouldn’t that make them better? The time inputting QCF is wasted basically. It does not matter when the fireball is buffered from something else, but I sure would like to be able to walk around poking people with 1 button fireballs. The situation is not the same, a JK is not a fireball but this is just to make you understand with a comparasion why a faster input is better.
“Hey, why do you compare it to a 1 button move? You still have to QCB dude”
In a perfect iAJK the time wasted doing QCB is the time wasted delaying the kick so you can JK. Executing iAJK basically comes down to pressing uf and not fucking up, executing TKJK comes down to inputing a QCB, then uf, then not fucking up.
“But you can buffer it during strings/wakeup/whathever”
Yeah, you can. But why would you bother if you could iAJK?
iAJK (perfect) is not easy and I’ll still need at least a month or two before I can get it down 100%, but TKJK is not exactly easy either, just a different kind of difficulty. That and unless you always buffer it from the same normal, it will require different timings. You have to know the exact recovery of your normal and start buffering it accordingly else you get a neutral jump. With good iAJK skill at worst you get a slightly sub optimal height one, which isn’t THAT dangerous unless it’s the HK version (because it whiffs on crouchers easier).
As iAJK can replace TKJK, and because the opposite is not true, I’m not sure why I would waste time learning TKJK, which is hard as fuck, since learning iAJK, which is overall better, is already a huge fucking timesink to master.
“why are you offensive?”
Come on now, I’m not. Sometimes a little honest maybe. If you feel offended, flame me all day, it’s an internet message board, who gives a fuck. The point is to become better adon players and to discover optimal adon strats.
Now if you have time and skill to master both feel free to do it, especially since as everyone says buffering removes the innate handicap of iAJK. Unless someone convices me otherwise, I wont.
iAJK is a good way to shorthand it I think, the lowercase makes it easier to differentiate between the move and the conditions.
I just started practicing the iAJK’s with Adon a minute ago (I’ve fucked around with Cammy so I’m used to the instant dive, though I never learned the delayed dive) and I finally kind of had the TK JK down enough to try out combos with it. I gotta say, getting off multiple TK JKs in a row feels and looks amazing. iAJK would be a counterfootsie, right? Because it’s invulnerable to low hits?
I’ll try the iAJK your way TVG, and see if I can get it low enough. Does getting it low really matter, as long as you can combo c. lp after it?
TVG and others, give TK JK a try again, but time the hk by watching Adon’s feet. I did this and the timing got 100x easier for me. Press hk immediately as you leave the ground.
EDIT: I went into training immediately after my post and beasted the fuck out of TK JK! The only times I fucked up was when I did the input wrong, the timing was fine. Not to say I have it down or could use it in a match but damn… Just watch the feet yo, and learn the timing. I was meaning to try the iAJK the other way, but I’m too hype now. The timing can’t be one frame at all, or maybe I’m just used to these sorts of inputs from competitive smash. I dunno, but I beg you TVG to give this shit one more real try before you make your final decision. After a bit of this I’ll try it your way too, and see if I can get it more consistent. Even if this takes me a week, at least it’ll improve my game more than spending that time learning Ibuki’s c.lp c.lp s.lp s.mk xx tsumuji or neckbreaker hit confirm and link grumble grumble
I’m gonna try it your way TVG and see how easy it is to get low. My final selling point to use the initial jump input rather than TK would be if the slightly delayed JK was able to beat a certain fireball while the TK version was not. Can anyone verify this for me?
And finally, if someone could look at frame data to check what the frame opening is for TK JK that’d clear all of this up. If there’s only one frame for you to get off the AJK then clearly it’s not worth anyone’s time.
Do double tapping or negative edging make the TK JK easier?
Lemme know what you find.
I’ll reply point by point and then go to sleep.
You can do the same thing with iAJK
Because it’s quicker to execute in footsies. You’re vulnerable while doing the QCF on the ground.
Getting it low matters because if you don’t, stuff like ryu c.mk goes under it. You have worse frames on block and it’s slower. Also, if you try to hit crouch techers, you might go over their c.lk but they can recover in time to block if you do it too high, which defeats the purpose.
Ryu does a fireball in front of you, it’s just plain easier to react with iAJK than TKJK. Why? because, considering you get off both at the same height, the initial QCB motion make it slower. Consider also guile, while he might block your JK when you hop over a boom, doing the slower one just gives him more time to stick out a normal. Consider sagat, whose low tigers travel so fast I don’t want to waste time on the ground.
In theory, plinking the kick with a lower priority button should help you if you do it one frame too soon.
You do QCB, u then kick, but did it 1 frame early, the plinked button saves you and the JK still comes out as your normal is kara-canceled. That’s theory, tho. Like plinking iAJK it won’t help you THAT much even if it works.
IAJK or TK JK is not good to use in block strings or throw bait because you can’t cancel the recovery of your normal into IAJK or TK JK. Air JK comes out faster than ground JK but you have to add the recovery of your normal, c.mp has 11 frames of recovery, and add in pre jump frames that Air JK can’t be done in (4 frames) then add in the start up of air JK which is 14. It takes 30 frames before air JK comes out after a blocked c.mp which is massive if you’re trying to bait a throw and you’re lucky if your opponent don’t knock you out of it.
Apposed to c.mp cancel to ground JK which will hit the opponent in roughly 8-10 frames. Personally, I haven’t found a good use for IAJK or TK JK. It also does less chip damage as ground JK, too.
TK JK and iAJK should be the same thing, with TK JK merely referring to the input. If anything, doing the motion after jumping should be delayed AJK because it’s not instant, or rising AJK because it comes out as you’re going up rather than after the jump’s apex. When I say iAJK I mean both TK and delayed. So when I said is iAJK a good counter footsie I meant any form thereof.
@ruff0123:
iAJK is safe on block, and can combo into c. lp, lk rj FADC ultra. That cannot be useless at all.
I think you cannot plink iAJK of any variety, as it results in an EX iAJK. Plinking is just for linking.
So the question still stands, does negative edging or double tapping help TK JK?
Alas, even though I’ve been getting down my TK JK remarkably solidly for the little practice I’ve had, it seems like getting off the post-jump input AJK would be better for someone with as little competitive SF experience as me. I’m only just picking up Adon anyway, no need to learn anything extremely input intensive so soon. Time to start practicing delayed aerial jaguar kick then!
You can plink by using a punch with the kick. You’ll get kick, punch kick.
And ground JK is safe on block to everything except 2 frame SPDs. I find that air JK is a good special to evade horizontal moving moves like honda’s head butt but you won’t see me spamming it over ground JK to lock opponent down.
The IAJK just gives you more liberty to input the QCB. With the TK, the shit comes out as soon as you hit the kick button. With the IAJK, you jump THEN you do QCB so there’s no “set” trajectory if you will. That’s the only reason why I would personally use it over TK myself. Not because some Adon got 2nd in SBO or some shit and thats what he used. I think it’s all about personal preference and what you are more comfortable with. I think, ultimately… IAJKs COULD be used as TKJKs because itll come to a point where the IAJK will be inputted so fast that the trajectory will be the same as if you were to do a TKJK.
Jus sayin…
You’re adding at least 3 frames of inputs before you jump effectively making your JK slower if you tiger knee it. But an iAJK starts as soon as you hit jump and ends the first frame you could JK anyways. So, unless you’re buffering it you’re taking time before you jump that wouldn’t be there if you just did an iAJK.
I’m not trying to bash anyone but it really comes down to laziness. If you learn the TKJK, you either require a buffer or a slower input time. If you do the iAJK, you can do it whenever, including after block strings. iAJK is harder, but Adon is a hard character.
Personally, when I want an air jaguar kick off of a block string, I buffer down then hit jump, and it comes out with slightly more reliability. For me it feels just like I’m super jump canceling a normal into a special like in MvC2…
P.S.: For clarification, by definition an iAJK comes out the first frame the game allows Adon to preform a special move. A TKJK will NOT come out faster than an iAJK relative to when Adon begins jumping. If you’re standing then a iAJK will come out sooner relative to when you begin your input, and when you’re recovering from anything they’ll come out at the exact same time if done correctly. iAJK has universal use while TKJK is limited and for that reason, the lazier technique.
Holy shit someone gets it. I’m done.
Subconsciously I knew this too. I had a feeling IA’s came out faster. Good shit Haze
Anyone who feels the need to buffer, try just buffering the down, jumping, then completeing the qcb in the air. Buffering the entire qcb isn’t at all necessary, as you have plenty of time to complete the qcb during the “pause” you have to take before Adon is far enough off the ground to do a special. You’d be surprised how much more consistent an iAJK if you wiggle the stick down just before you jump. This is still slowing you down but it’s a trade off I take when I’m not fully composed in a match and not feeling 100% with my execution. Keep in mind though, if you really want to be the best Adon player you can be, you need to be able to go from standing to air-jaguar kick as fast as possible, and that requires an unbuffered iAJK. Buffering with down is way better than a TKJK but is still a crutch, and should mostly be kept to the end of a block string just because in that case (and in that case only) is it a free buffer that eases execution without compromising speed.
I haven’t posted anything in this thread before because I really feel like what I pointed out should be common sense. :wonder: Geez, someone beats J Wong with Adon and the noobs come flocking… It’s one thing to not know the game, it’s another thing to argue with other people when you don’t know.
You just
don’t
know.
Seriously though noobs, TVG is just trying to help you and doesn’t need to defend his statements against you. We can tell when someone doesn’t know what they’re talking about, and you’re opinions are not valued. Know your role. Ryu knew when to shut up and listen to Gouken. Dan didn’t, and look at him now.
TBH, i call BS.
The TKJK is essentially the same as iAJK, when considering that buffering the QCB is the best way (and quickest way)to pull off the TKJK. It’s alot tougher to buffer the QCB in an iAJK - unless i’m missing something, and for it to be the lowest possible, i find even tougher than TKJK.
The only gripe i have with TKJK is that you need to sort of have the stick return to neutral before finishing the input. That’s not so simple when you’re forced to block or something, and more effective if you’re doing blockstrings.
Personally, i have to master iAJK more, but i can see it being the “lazier” route, but most effective when you’re not attempting to catch someone offguard or use blockstrings. TKJK is better for those, imo. So i would suggest to most serious Adon players to definitely master iAJK first as it’s the easier to start off with, then tamper with TKJK and see if its effectiveness matches your play style.
But by no means would i write off TKJKs just because “Gamerbee” never uses them or because they’re tougher to pull off.
I’m sorry if my conversation with TVG offended you Haze. I’m here to learn and I still plan to do just that, even if calling something one of you has said into question for clarity’s sake somehow offends your egos. I never meant offense, and if you really think I should never question or ask for more information on anything either one of you says, then I won’t. I never doubted your SF prowess, and while I may have taken offense at your elitist comments before, and the one I am addressing now, it doesn’t mean I assumed you were a bad player. I hadn’t realized I was supposed to memorize a list of who has been playing for ten years and who is a bit newer, and be careful as fuck not to step on the toes of those who consider themselves above me.
So yeah. I won’t mention anything you guys say from now on, or even fathom that you could be mistaken. Wouldn’t want to bruise your egos before a tourney or something.
And of course, if that’s how it has to be for you to share what you know with me, then I guess I’ll just have to suck it up, learn from it, and not worry about your abrasive personalities because I simply don’t know you. Because, once again, I am simply here to learn.
Edit: Regarding the actual topic at hand, I’ve been having a lot of success using the TK JK sort of as a long range poke, or counter-footsie using it’s invulnerability to low attacks and ability to hit characters still in their crouching attack animation (say, Ryu’s c.mk for example), while I’ve been using the post-jump iAJK to counter fireballs, both of these uses has served me well. Getting the post-jump iAJK off low enough to punish fireballs is hella easy, although the timing may be a bit tighter to combo off of it. I am trying to use it as my tool to discourage fireballs rather than U1, so that I still have reliable fireball coverage while using U2. Please inform me of any mistakes or false notions I have about any of these uses here if you know of them.
Because you can combo off of the air jaguar kick. You can also use it to be tricky when someone is trying to anti air you. My bro mains Adon and as dhalsim it can get frustrating not being able to tell if a jumping mk is coming or a air jaguar kick. because if you guess to answer to the air mk you will eat an air jaguar kick so it conditions me to just block.
Call me crazy, but I think it would be beneficial to learn both TK JK’s and IAJK’s.
You’re Crazy
obviously one is better than the other in this case IAJK.
lol dude lots of kids in the boards these days. Bluebomber, I wasn’t even talking about you directly, just the multitude of people arguing about the TKJK when they just don’t understand what they’re talking about, this isn’t a debate it’s people trying to help you all improve on your game. Quit cluttering the board with stupidly long posts when “sorry” or “Hey Haze, don’t be a dick” would suffice.
Anyways, it almost seems like people don’t know what an iAJK is. The “i” stands for Instant. Scheck it
iAJK: ____________:u: :qcb:+:k:
TKJK: :d: :db: :l: (n) :u: (pause) :k:
Now look, by tiger kneeing, you’re adding at least 3 frames before your jump. Not only this, but you still have to wait a few frames after hitting up before you can even hit kick, since Adon needs to reach a certain height before he can special, hit kick early and you’ll get a normal. Believe it or not, this pause (plus Adon’s pre-jump frames) is enough time to input a quarter circle back. If you try to iAJK and it isn’t as low as a TKJK, or as fast, you’re not doing a real instant-AJK. You’re just doing a regular air jaguar kick, nothing special. An iAJK comes out the first frame possible, and is no higher than a TKJK when done correctly. It is no doubt difficult, and I understand everyone’s confusion if you aren’t performing them as fast as you’re supposed to for a true instantAJK. But the reality is, a TKJK takes 3-6 frames more to come out from start to finish than a true instant-AJK. This is basic frame theory guys…
Alright then. I’m sorry, and don’t be a dick. It sounded like you were directly referring to me, but obviously I misinterpreted. I’m sorry for that too. Chastising me on post length seems a bit of a low blow, but I’ll live.
Anyway, I am obviously not achieving a true iAJK the up + qcb way. I’ll have to sit down and work on that then. Has anyone gotten this semi-reliable yet? I guess the good side is that if you fuck it up the JK would just come out a bit late, as opposed to the nj.mk that TK JK provides.
Correct me if I’m wrong:
There is a one frame opening to successfully pull off iAJK, and you’ll have a two frame input to try to fill that opening if you plink rk + fp. Correct?