I disagree with your disagreement because it’s very simple to react to a DWU by the time you’d get to be doing an os
I disagree with your disagreement of my disagreement.
This breaks apart when measured OS is applied (i.e. those requiring frame kills to be effective). When you hurl in the potential for DWU to be executed, measured UTK OS has a 50% chance of failure. Sometimes this failure is OK, sometimes it can be quite a liability and handover momentum, often on a platter of punishment.
On behalf of all the Akuma players I’d like to say hi. DWU fucks with our OS game quite heavily (when compared with previous versions of SFIV), specifically measured OS. Naturally we have adapted, however the point still stands. Flip palm OS into U2 against Balrog is a good example of this. If he executes DWU and Akuma has applied a measured palm/U2 OS, the palm whiffs, the U2 comes out, whiffs, and then Balrog rises to his feet and scores a free punish - including the ability to raw Ultra. Previously, because there was no such DWU mechanic, this was a measured and effective OS that forced Balrog to block. Every other option of his ate shit.
Akuma cannot ‘react’ to DWU for many of his previous setups because the DWU indicator appears whilst he is balls-deep into applying his setup - typically once he is airborne and committed to the required inputs. The interim solution for some very loose setups is to forego measurement and apply manual inputs which hinge on catching the DWU indicator where possible (and forking your options) which removes the measured aspect and invokes a lot of potential error. Errors are especially bad for Akuma.
This is the scenario I am describing. It doesn’t affect all characters nor option selects, but it does affect those characters who utilised measured OS setups from UTK’s previously guaranteed down time. Again, not all measured OS that can be fudged from the opponent executing DWU results in a gigantic punish, but quite a few do. DWU makes this possible.
Gonna dive in on this OS talk. They need to stay if the game has a billion defensive escape tools like Sf4. The whole reason the OS game developed and got to the point it is now is because characters have defensive options like backdash, dp, other thing that beats throws or strikes, ultra, or teleport available all at once
Hopefully sf5 cuts the option tree down to singular defensive reversal and maybe backdash so overly complex OS offense isn’t necessary
I dunno, CVS2 was a very complex game yet didn’t need all of this OS stuff. Most of the complex stuff was in the neutral or in the combos. Block string/wake up stuff was never used in such a picky manner as it is in SFIV. Same with 3rd Strike since only supers cause hard knockdown.
Limit the amount of things that cause hard knockdown, change the input system and give every character more than one true block string and should be fine. I dunno who’s dumb idea it was to screw around with the block stun so much. If it combos it should almost always create a true string. None of this only true strings off jabs and shit. Get that shit out.
Complex is fine. I meant overly complex OS based offense. Thats bad if you need the game to make choices just to be successful against all the defense
Less defensive options, the better. People need to learn how to block properly. At the same time Capcom need to improve the ground offense game,a general damage increase,players need a reason to keep pressure after a gained K.D. advantage. That means also no more invincible backdashes and a strict reversal window: because of Focus Attack some defensive options are needed.
I know you what you meant. I’m just saying CVS2 had the complexity in the right parts.
throw priority need to be nerfed too. no I don’t wanna get thrown out of my super/ultra. if I see a throw attempt then I should be able to mash out of it instead of playing the bullshit tech throw game for DAYS. and chill with the “safe” moves. there are way too many of those shits in sf4. high damaging combos and setups shouldn’t be “safe”. if you fuck up then you should get punished for it.
and…THROW IS NOT A FUCKING ANTI-AIR. I don’t know if its just a online lag gimmick but Ive seen that many times where people throw me out of my jump in and cross up instead of punishing it with a proper anti-air. point is throws in sf4 are shitty and annoying and need to be nerfed.
Actually throws need to be better, but not in a vacuum. The close range game needs an overhaul
If mash defensive jab or crouch tech into combo is a serious part of the game, im not playing at all
In that first live gameplay footage we saw, it seemed fairly evident that ryu got that crazy counter hit on chun when she as poking him with crouching lp’s or lk’s so I wouldn’t worry too much. Even from the bison and charlie trailer, it just doesn’t really seem like poke mashing is viable anymore. It doesn’t necesarilly have to back to being like SFIII where you’d get two lk’s to combo into one another at best. An in between would be alright.
I refuse to believe capcom would still allow bullshit like balrog taking a lifetime of luxury to confirm infinite crouching lp’s into his ultra. The single most broken aspect of SFIV in my opinion.
From discussion here and elsewhere I think people basically want 3S without the parry, or CVS2 without A Groove. both of those come close to what people are describing.
Well, it seems at the community generally favors 3S as being better than IV for many reasons. I happen to be one of those people, and think that 3S was the highest point of the SF series. I don’t want the same game or system but I wan’t something of that caliber, is all.
3s that is faster, a little less combey, no meter build on whiff and with a strong zoning (projectiles) game would be fine. 3s is definitely better than IV, even people who don’t like parries would agree to that. I’d personally want something built on the ST formula, but a lot less glitches…no throw/hold loops and advancing that. In all honestly though, SFV needs to be its own thing. There is no point in trying to emulate an older entry, likely it will just be inferior and thus a pointless addition to the series.
CVS2 morrigan has a vortex with an option select roll cancel command grab option among other dumb things, lets not say you can’t get super nuanced in that game.
The defining factor in cvs2 not having the same level of okizeme in most situations is that combos and throws don’t tend to knock down for a billion frames like they do in SF4, well that and the lack of invincbile backdash.
@Gamogo you have worse reactions than me, i can see the technical message by the time i have to hit the palm. Maybe YOU can’t react to it with akuma, but i can. I end up with a whiff palm into meaty/throw/bait situation if he happens to DWU. There would be a neglible chance I would do the OS. Stop autopiloting.
Hmm, I don’t think you understand the angle I am coming from. For a measured setup utilising OS, you can’t react. Once you are applying the setup, you’re strapped in. Put another way, yes, you could call it autopiloting. That’s the foundation of measured setups.
Previously, because the game didn’t have DWU, these OS setups were a lock.
Now, because the game HAS DWU, these OS are subject to variations that can cause them to be flubbed should the opponent opt to use DWU.
Again, not all OS and characters are subject to this, but some are - particularly measured ones or those utilising setups stemming from frame kills. This has nothing to do with ‘reactions’ whatsoever.
At any rate, I’m gonna do d3v’s job and tell you to take this to PM, as this noise stands to derail the thread (unless of course it warrants more jabber).
Autopiloting is a good thing in fighting games?
I don’t know what you call a “measured setup” but i’m knocking boxer down and doing a safejump palm setup and then if i don’t see dwu i don’t OS. I tried sweep and f.throw.
I put random dwu on and i didn’t input the os once when the technical flashed. So I don’t know what I’m missing.
on topic: shorter knockdowns on average would prevent these sort of conversations.
Not really in my opinion. It removes the decision/read element and I think this was one of the good things that DWU (despite its issues) brought back to the game, especially for characters heavily disadvantaged once knocked down.
I think so too. Its actually quite interesting seeing commentary of matches switch to anticipation for almost every character/player once a knockdown is scored. It’s so lengthy (say, once a UTK from a throw or sweep is scored) that commentators are often given enough time to say “Ok, hard knockdown, what’s the setup . . . ?”
With DWU we obviously see more setup escapes/evasion though it is still sometimes there.
ugh I hope hard knockdowns get severely toned down overall and soft knockdown time will be shorter
also please no EX auto-movement moves like Akuma/Gouken’s dive kick or Sakura’s EX Otoshi. or insane amount invincibility on some moves except for specific situations
I would prefer playing a game where it more reaction based and less auto pilot. Even Dudley’s U1 or Adon’s U1 are bit a too much IMO
I like the fact that doing safe falls in cvs2 would put yourself in vulnerable state for a certain amount of frame and that the reversal window was much more shorter. Or so it felt like it.