In ST dee jay uses jab x 2, st.mp link into special.
Iirc guile can cr.lp, link st.mp or st.hp xx flashkick
Bison uses jabs into TOD iirc. I can’t remember all the characters, but A3 was jabby as was cvs2.
Ken uses cr.lk x2 into super.
Sakura uses cr.lk x2, st.lk xx fierce uppercut
A ism characters used cr.lk,cr.lp,cr.lk confirm into super.
A ism gen used cr.lp,cr.lk,cr.mk xx super
One huge problem with mediums as combo starters is that they are flowchart in many/most cases…ryu cr.mk xx fireball etc etc, also, though I’m not at all against this, when you take jabs out as confirms, you increase the need for most specials to be safe on block so they can be autopiloted out on block.
Oldschool streetfighter wasn’t all about the jab, sure, but some of that was lack of knowledge at the time.
3s confirms off lights off the top of my head (Naeras already said some of these)
Chun can stand jab low jab -> super
Yun can low short x2 -> dash punch, and also 1-2-3 -> dash punch/upkicks/shoulder or GJ
Shotos can low short x2 -> super, and in some situations can low short low jab -> uppercut
Makoto can stand jab stand short -> hayate (then super if she’s playing seichu)
Dud can low short x2 -> super
Yang can low short or jab x2 -> EX mantis slashes
so most of the top 8 can confirm meaningful damage off lights, and everything I listed gets used in high level play.
but the overall point I suppose is that 3s is much more “open” in that a lot of action takes place in the midrange ground game, as opposed to many matches in SF4 where the meat of the action takes place in like crouch jab range. there’s more to that than whether you can confirm off lights I think. stuff like how much damage single pokes do, what the hitboxes look like, and how fast everyone walks or dashes.
I see the point but I really do like light based infight. What do you think of @sf4 lights with a shorter reach, such as after two of those from up close the third will whiff. Then having to rely on mediums, but the defender can throw a light for counter hitting the medium attempts by example. Enabling characters a fast reliable punition/pressing/combo starting from lights but not much more except for specialised characters.
I think part of the thing is SF4 is so combocentric, so everything comboing off lights stands out that much more. That wonderful crouch tech into full combo is a thing of beauty as well (sarcasm).
KOF13 goes in the “it’s fine”-group. The game is pretty different, as it’s less ground-based than SF is. Also, the light attacks aren’t necessarily as important for starting combos as hop-ins are, and pressure is extremely important in that game. On top of that, almost everyone have equivalents of target combos that can be used to confirm, usually to a greater reward. Oh, and you don’t have to link off of the lights either, you can cancel them even if you chain them.
IMO, a bigger factor in how dominant combos of crouching lights in SFIV are is the fact that the game just doesn’t feel as rewarding from medium range compared to going in close.
I’d be more inclined to agree with this if put things like this into context of matchups and how it differs from other games. Because without this, you might as well say “I prefer games where I can do hit-confirm at footsie range into Super” (which also means it boils down to an issue of personal preference - see below). That’s just about the only thing that I can agree with that does not happen in SFIV.
AFAIK, the consensus is that SFIV’s close-up game is WEAK but the mid-range offers more in comparison to other games. Think about it - what are you other options in other games when land a poke or punish in other games? It’s either nothing, or CC/Super cancel. That’s it. Up close? The opponent has a million and one ways to escape pressure. This is completely the opposite to what is being stated here.
I don’t see where this idea comes from where most of the action takes place at close range. It simply doesn’t. Barring a few matchups where the characters’ designs lend themselves to that style of play, the dynamics of the matchup play similarly to other games. Don’t confuse the ability to hit-confirm from lights with having a meta-game where close-up action is strong and/or dominant.
For some reason the dominant meme about how SFIV is bad these days is because of combos? This is exactly the opposite of what people were claiming when the game was launched. One of the biggest complaints was that the game doesn’t reward combos. Now all of a sudden people are saying the game would be better if it had fewer of them (when the truth is probably the opposite). SMH.
But of course, everyone knows why this is. It’s because noone will ever agree on what makes a good fighting game. People will never agree on guard-crush. People never agree on 1 vs 2 button throws. People will never agree on parries, links, DWU, execution vs strategy, etc etc. Primarily because of personal taste, familiarity and bias. And these are just the superficial, easy-to-observe mechanics. When it comes to things like footsies and how games lend themselves to the application of certain strategies (and which of these strategies are preferable), not only will people not agree on it, most people aren’t even able to reason about games on this level. So for the sake of discussion, we should at least try to contextualize what we are talking about.
My problem with the game is raw ultras still do too much damage and therefore you still see them ALL THE TIME even in high level play. If they scaled less in combos, like 3x short, EX legs, Chun U2 didn’t scale as hard, ultras would be more useful and people wouldn’t feel like they have to look for ways to land raw ultra to do any damage.
There is a way to accomplish what dev is talking about. I dont think he actually wants it so that jabs confirms are bad from what he’s saying, I think it’s more about him wanting better cr.mk confirms and ranged confirms in general.
And I concur, but I still want jab confirms as well.
The answer to this is to make specials come out faster and be safer on block, and have a good amount of range. This way you can have longish range poke xx special as a good midranged offense.
The way sf4 plays though, most long rang pokes aren’t cancelable, or if they are they aren’t cancelable into anything good.
It’s less a jab thing and more a crappy midranged poke and special thing.
The thing is you do have ranged confirms in SFIV because of FADC. Even without FADC Cammy can confirm cr.mk. Akuma confirms far st.hk, CH far st.hp. Ken CH step-kick. Chun far st.mp/st.hp. Ryu SPS. Guile far st.HP. Add special moves and you get even more ranged hit-confirmable moves (this is more common in 2D fighters even though it is still kinda rare). This is what I mean when I say SFIV has more options than other games in neutral besides the fact that walk speeds and normals suck. And beyond that each character has their own options that they confirm into. It’s not all just move xx super.
Hit-confirming from neutral from normals is not something that is done in many other 2D SF games. The only exceptions I know of are 3S with Chun/Ken (and I’m not sure if that was really intentional - Chun’s is a late cancel and Ken’s is basically a 14f confirm), and of course SFxT where the meta is confirm/buffer into boost. (I don’t know much about the EX series)
I can agree to an extent that more characters in the cast need the ability to do this, but it’s important to remember that this is not standard practice in 2D SF games, and if you make these mechanics too strong then you have less variety in matches. Some characters should be weak at neutral, stronger at zoning, weaker at defense, stronger at oki etc. IMO the more important thing that SFIV needs in neutral is better walkspeeds, more active frames on normals and better hitboxes. In this way it strengthens everyones footsie game without homogenising gameplay.
As for light attacks, I’ve always said that 3f crouch tech needs to go. IIRC Itabashi Gief said frame traps are strong, but it’s a big risk against 3f crouch tech. This, and the stupid number of defensive options is what makes makes SFIV’s close up game weak. I don’t mind that you can confirm with lights because it comes with a damage trade-off, but I’d personally like to see slightly better balance where pushback and walk-speed. I’m not a big fan of jab, walk, jab pressure.
What’s considered a BnB? Afaik, in older games, off of a c.mk you only got a fireball or a super, for example.
In SF4, the mid range is still there. You actually get a lot more off of mid-range pokes because of FADC… it’s just that they didn’t give half the cast the ability to do that.
I misspoke when I said confirm. What I meant was long range cancelable pokes that are safe on block, or are simply safe to throw out and recover quickly.
Case in point, ST:
Og Sagat: low H tiger shot.
Balrog: st.fp, dash low straight, tap, sweep
Deejay: maxout
Vega: sweep, cr.mp,walldive, st.mk
Ryu: fireball, sweep, cr.mk
Guile: boom, cr.mk.
Sim: most of his ranged pokes and slides, his fireball
Fei: rekkas
Chun: fireball, cr.mk, j.lk,sweep
Etc etc
Point being that sf4 at least doesn’t have a lot of these kinds of moves that have a combination of range speed and good recovery. It does have good ranged pokes, but they always recover very slow in general, which slows the game speed down.
I agree with everything else though. The throw game is bad, the walk speed is bad bla bla etc etc
O.Sagat recovery was actually a bug. It was fixed in HSFII.
As for the rest, a lot of that simply has to do with how blockstun/hitstun and push back work in those games. Vega can spam slide all day vs Guile because of the pushback (it’s -9f in ST which counts as very punishable in SFIV). But the universally high pushback comes at a price - much lower combo potential on all moves.
I’m not going to go into detail about this (I’ve posted about it on multiple occasions at length) but I do feel it’s worth considering the mechanics and trade-offs in games like ST, Alpha, SFIV and even SFxT and how it affects gameplay. It’s fine to want spammable moves, but in what way should they be spammable? By virtue of their frame-advantage, pushback, or both? What type of metagame do these options lead to? Will it fit in with what we know about SFV (V-Trigger, guard crush, high projectile chip etc). Those are the important questions, because a crappy game with good neutral is still a crappy game.
Personally I’m not a huge fan of having normals or specials that are so strong such that you have little need to press any other button in some matchups. It just leads to uninteresting footsie games (“Guess what button I’m going to press next?”, says Sirlin as he hits Rose cr.mp for the 12th time). I’d rather have a good set of tools, each of which has specific uses rather than a button I can spam to victory. The reason you don’t hear people ask for this is because they keep referring to older games where characters were designed like that. It’s not often you’ll find a game where the whole, or even majority of the cast has a good set of tools. This is something that needs to change in SF.
Nor am I, made the mid-range game stale in my opinion. I was maining bison for quite a while and standing mk/hk would cover nearly every option i’d need for the most part. The same could be said about crouching mk. Wasn’t all that much fun after a while. I could point out several examples of other powerful normals pertinent to specific characters but I think we all know what they are. A good example for this that I can think of is 3rd strike Necro. Almost all of his normals were varied and useful, like, goddamn. close back mp as combo starter, back hp as anti air, corner standing lp for ticks and juggling, crouching mk to cover distance and so on…capcom should take a page from that IMO.
Taking the topic offtrack just for a sidenote, I’m all in for a smaller cast. The number of 16 characters was floating around from some purported leaks which I really don’t care much for but i’d be fine with 16 as an initial cast. USFIV is too big. Makes it near impossible to truly learn your matchups unless you devote an ungodly amount of time into the game. With all the patches since the original super release, the whole matchup knowledge hasn’t been made much easier either. The idea of v-triggers changing the meta game and adding a yet unknown amount of depth per character is more attractive than just adding more and more characters. This feature could allow for more personalized play styles depending on the player, rather than good players being near carbon copies of each other. SFIV is very flowcharty so you can almost always expect to see good players to do the exact same thing as that last dude.
I definitely need my Viper/Ibuki type character. I like to press a lot of buttons and do a lot of things with the controller so they definitely need an execution heavy character for me in the game. Definitely not going to settle with simple low execution footsie characters for the first run of the game. I need my animu character to get me started in SFV.
If you wanna like Guy like in Alpha2/3 go play Alpha2/3 IMO. The same goes for any character.
In SFV, I want the characters to play like in SFV, adapting to the new mechanics and system, even if it meant removing and adding new normals/moves in the process.