The only purpose 1 frame links serve is to make execution much more difficult in essential combos for competitive play. This has nothing to do with actual strategy. Better ways to improve the game are by making the strategy more deep and complex, not the execution.
People who like 1 frame links probably just want to feel some sort of accomplishment over doing something that doesn’t depend on strategy. It’s stupid, serves no real purpose, and ruins the game for many people, which causes the fighting game scene to be much lower. It sickens me that people like 1 frame links. It’s a poison to the game and the community.
Hopefully they do something to address this in SF5. It would be so easy to put in like 2 or 3 buffer frames like they have in Blazblue. This would alleviate 1 frame links without having any negative side effects.
I can’t think of anyone I know that would say “man I love me some long Sakura combos because you need to do a bunch of 1-frame links” or “Abel having to do a 1-framer to even function as a character is great game design!”
I’ve said this previously, but I think it’s worth repeating: having 1-frame link combos are fine. It rewards execution, and execution is an important part of fighting games. However, this is an entirely different discussion. The problem is what SF4 did: a bunch of characters have 1-frame links as their only actual combo option, and that is terrible design. It just puts an arbitrary learning cliff on the character before you can start doing what I and many others consider to be the interesting stuff, which is the interaction between you and your opponent in the neutral game, offense and defense.
Putting them into a game with delay based netcode, meaning nothing you learn offline translates into what you do online and vice versa.
Pairing 1-frame links with a game that also has autoblock as well as huge reversal windows, effectively punishing aggressive players that go for combos and blockstrings.
Not having alternative combos with slightly lower damage. If Street Fighter IV actually had combos designed in a way that a basic punish combo nets you 300 damage and only contains cancels, then you have a 2 frame link combo that nets you 350 damage, and then you got 1 framers that deal 350 damage and have a special property like corner carriage, even higher damage or land you a hard knockdown, that would actually be good game design.
If you could learn progressively harder combos for progressively higher gain, that would be cool. Right now you got characters like Ryu that got a 1-framer in every single combo they can do and pityful damage on simple punishes like close standing hp xx shoryuken. Go play some ST and see how much damage that does if you do it there.
The game would be much more fun for newbies if Capcoms idea of making new players feel good wasn’t scrubbing out an ultra animation that disrupts the gameplay and gives them time to chug down more coca cola and cheerios, but if they’d make it easy for them how to learn a decent combo they so they can actually start playing the game versus other players and not against their hands and their controllers.
Game needs fucking good tutorials, a nice single player campaign that teaches them some stuff as well and it needs a back to basics approach. Less is more and SFIV is too much.
The reason parry’s are harder to do than focus is the same reason why reversals should be hard.
These things run the risk of dominating the fundamental game negatively, which is why the execution factor adds an element of risk.
Look at how focus in SFIV totally kills long and mid range pokes.
Same with easy reversals. They make jumping in a really bad option, so what did they do in IV to rectify this - nerf all the DPs so that they don’t do as much damage, which in turn ruins fundamentals since jumping in is now not that risky.
There is a difference between having a barrier of entry and needlessly complicating things. Which is what SF 4 did. And if you played the other SF games you’d realize why people have the gripes that they do with 4.
The worst part about 1f links about how much people bitch about them on forums.
I see people mention ST… yeah it’s great that you can do 40% off a j.hk cr.mk xx hadou… but guess what? It means that most grounded combos are going to be 2 to 3 hits max. I’m not even sure if there are any good recent 2D games that have this a core aspect of the metagame…
And besides that, ST is probably THE worst tournament game to mention when it comes to execution. I’d take 1f links ANY day of the week over ST’s rubbish engine. Consider this: they made the execution HARDER going from HF to ST. You can confirm this in Anniversary Edition using the relevant input scripts - HF Ryu’s DP is more lenient than ST Ryu. Not only that, they made the input windows RANDOM (from a player’s POV). In other words, input a DP in 16f and it might work, do it again and it might not. What kind of genius thought this was a good idea (did I hear someone say “needlessly complicating things”?)? Then you have the varying stage speeds that mess with combo timing, and the turbo implementation that literally prevents some combos and reversals from working 100% of the time. Stuff like Cammy’s hooligan doesn’t even work as intended. Certain reversal supers are impossible because of bugs. Now the reason you don’t hear players bitch about this (too) often is because ST is not a combo-centric game. 2 to 3-hit combos, zoning and throws are the order of the day.
ST is a great game, but please don’t mistake of thinking it has a good engine. It has a garbage engine.
I hate and like this post. 1-frame links are bs and shouldn’t be the main combo system. No other fighting game (at least one that’s popular) has a 1-frame link combo system. It’s garbage. Any dude who defends 1-frame links is a dude who started with SF4 and thinks that’s the standard.
On the other hand, I really don’t like ST’s engine. I don’t like the lack of trip guard. I don’t like the tick throw system. I don’t like the randomness of stun and damage.
I think ST is pretty overrated. But that’s just me. I know some dude is going to jump out of the wood work and say I’m wrong just because and won’t answer to any kind of critique because it is perfection in his eyes.
SFIV doesn’t have a 1f link “system”. It just has lots of 1f links. Guess what? Lots of other games have links that require 1f timings (without plinking!) and even worse, just-frame timings. For example, 3D fighters where your success with a character relies on how well you can land 1f punishment (see: Mishimas), or just-frame inputs where the directional inputs and button presses are just that - just-frame. Meaning that if there’s a 15f gap you have to ensure your directional inputs and button pushes have to full within 15f (see: Taunt Jet Upper). Then you have anime dashes that have things that are considerably harder than just press buttons with a certain rhythm, eg. Just Frame dashing to connect combos (see: VS pseudo-infinites). And of course the hilarity that is the concept of character weights where you have to memorize different variations of the same punishment because some characters fall faster/slower than others.
All of these previously mentioned issues are much more of a pain to deal with than 1f links. Yeah, having a 1f link as a BnB is dumb, and there really should be better reward for landing a 1f link than a 3f link (for example), but let’s not pretend that they are the worse things to happen to FGs… And it’s not like SFIV was the first game to have them. Jojo’s is filled with HARD, unplinkable link combos, and it’s still a fun game IMO.
I’m all for easing up execution in games where strategy is more important, but that’s a design decision, not an overarching ideal. I personally don’t see the difference between practicing something like Ryu’s jab into sweep, vs 1f punishment in Tekken/SCV.
Unless I’ve missed something, the reason there’s a lot important 1frame links in SF4 is because the moves characters link from don’t have enough hit stun to be followed by anything else. So really if you want a game that is less dependent on tight links, increased hitstun on some key moves would be a good answer rather than trying more wierd input buffer ideas.
SFIV has much higher hitstun than previous titles. Miss your j.hk timing in SFII? Get sac-thrown. This is one of the main reasons previous titles don’t have 1f links. You’re lucky if you get like a 2f link because a) The hitstun is so short and b) the push back doesn’t allow for extended combos. Most links in 3S only combo into super. BTW, someone also mentioned how 1f links are detrimental to online play. Do yourself a favour and peruse the 3S and ST forums and check the threads where people discuss emulator and hardware lag issues. These are hella important in 3S because of you miss your hit-confirm into super, well, you die. Lag issues affecting gameplay are not exclusive to SFIV. There are a lot of things in 3S that I just cannot hit-confirm on my LCD. So when I want to play 3S, I have to hook up my CRT. Sucks, but that’s just the nature of fighting games. The harder techniques will inevitably require better reactions and/or execution.
And yeah, there are other ways to reward people for landing 1f links. For example, you could make all links 3f or whatever, but give the player more frame advantage or higher damage if they just-frame it (something like EWGF or VF Akira K+G~-G). But then guess what happens? SFIV players have a headstart and people start complaining again. And even if you do this, 1f links will inevitably arise. Consider SFIV Sakura’s jab into sweep (1f link). Now make the jab +8f on hit instead. Now the link into sweep becomes 2f, but then she gains a 1f link into far st.hp…
For many characters, SFIV moves have faster startup than their previous incarnations. For example Ryu’s L, M, and H moves respectively are 3, 4 and 5f moves. You can’t really make them faster than that. In fact, I would prefer if they remove 3f chainable lights from most characters and add more active frames instead of faster startup to other moves.
If a game has 1f links that deal worse damage than easier links, players will use the latter. If the 1f links lead to bigger reward, they’ll use that. This has always been the case. The best you can hope for is that Capcom doesn’t design the game so that 1f links are the be-all and end-all of hard combos. It’s nigh impossible to design 1f links completely out of the game (unless you have a chain system, or reduce hitstun to the point where linking is virtually impossible). Once you think you’ve gotten rid of 1f links from normal play, you would still have to consider Counter Hit combos and meaties.
The answer doesn’t lie with adjusting frame data. If you want to make 1f links easier then add a buffer system, but this also introduces it’s own issues, some of which may or may not really affect how the game is played (consider: option selects).
omg at people suggesting to increase hitstun or decrease startup speed to solve the 1 frame link problem. It boggles the mind how stupid this is. All this does is change what normals can and can’t combo into each other. You get rid of some 1 frame links, but introduce others inadvertantly. It also completely destabilizes and imbalances the combo system and normals.
The only way to solve 1 frame link problems while still keeping links in tact is by having a buffer system. Let’s say you have a 2 frame buffer system. You input a normal 2 frames early (before your last normal is finished). It will still come out when your prior normal finishes. If you input it 3 or more frames too early it will not come out. So basically, what would normally be a 1 frame link is now a 3 frame link. You have the exact frame to input it on along with 2 buffer frames. This way, all combos never get harder than 3 frame links. And you don’t have to mess with frame data at all. Blazblue does this, and it works.
A buffer system is probably the best / only “solution” that doesn’t allow for just frame or new links, but I would not be the least bit surprised if said buffer results in some OS gimmicks.
btw, @d3v crMK xx Super does over 40% for most characters in SF4 too.
Chun crMK xx Super = 400 damage
Ken crMK xx Super = 430 damage
Cammy crMK xx Super = 400 damage
Sagat crMK xx Super = 415 damage
Fei crMK xx Super = 450 damage
Sakura crMK xx Super =410 damage
Viper crMK xx Super = 410 damage
Many characters can also make it nearly 50% if they do a buffer to special xx Super like Viper crMK xx TK xx Super which is 460
I think everyone’s forgetting the biggest problem about 1f links in IV - the fact that they are totally arbitrary and added in supposedly for “hardcore players”. Remember, they confirmed as such during one of the early interviews about the game in development.
But it isn’t the go to damage tool in IV compared to 3S thanks to how much more focused on super meter the latter is. You aren’t going to see people trying build meter to threaten with super meter save for a few exceptions (Rose) in IV, whereas it was the standard thing to do in 3S.
But that has less to do with the 1F link system and more to do with FADCs and/or 2 EX moves doing as almost much as a super while costing less. That’s the meta rather than the mechanical differences which you keep mentioning how you can do 40% with a simple hit confirm into super in 3S as though it’s not an option in SF4 as though SF4 can’t go that route.
It IS an option, just not the optimal one because of FADCs often do nearly as much or more damage and in general EX moves in SF4 are usually stronger than 3S while supers are usually stronger in 3S than SF4. In addition you can’t build meter by whiffing normals in SF4. Buffering to specials is also a often more consistent and safer option than buffering to supers in SF4.
The issue comes more down to meter building and usage of meter rather than damage options or 1F links as you often complain about. If SF4 supers were cheaper and easier to build while EX moves and FADCs cost more you’d see a lot more simple buffers to supers.
A perfect example is Yun. Until EX Red Focus came along he’d buffer to super. Now that EX RF gets him the same damage + better resets + stun while costing 1 bar less you never see Genei Jin.
Meanwhile, why would Makoto almost EVER use super when 95% of the time she gets more damage buffering to EX Fukiage and using EX Axe Kick?
Rose uses super a lot because she builds meter very well and FADC combos aren’t that great for her outside of the corner or a deep jumpin combo and her EX Spiral Arrow is really the only important EX move she has.
The only OTHER way to make supers relevant besides by increasing cost of thus nerfing EX moves and FADCs + reducing cost of Supers is to massively increase utility of supers. Super for Chun is worth while because it punishes anything. Super for Ryu is worth while because it punishes a ton and gives tons of frame advantage.