No, you didn’t get it. Maybe i didn’t explain it well enough, my bad. Pick the EX Hadouken. It doesn’t have natural Armor Breaking attributes, it breaks focus only because it has two hits. Meanwhile, the Tatsumaki breaks focus on contact. You could be able to parry and get grey life on a EX Hadouken, but even for a normal LK Tatsu, you would have to spend bar if you want to parry it because otherwise it would chip you to death.
I meant a parry that required bar to spend, how would you implement that in a game with multi-hitting attacks? More than one hit and you’ve just wasted all of your bar for doing something correctly just to get hit. And a red focus esque move isn’t a parry at all really, it’s a red focus. Which aren’t something I would like to see at all.
@Froztey yea what I mentioned was jokingly the total extreme lol. I wouldn’t seriously suggest that. But removing one or two of those suggestions out of that equation would make parrying fair for everyone, in my opinion.
As for Parrying taking super meter, that would suck too. If you take the risk to parry, you want to get big damage after it. Creating hype moments in fighting games should be promoted.
This is why I’m in favour of “Last ditch effort” comeback mechanics that will have your character die if you fail to make a comeback, the Pandora mode from SFxT for instance. They create instant hype “I have __ seconds left before I die, better pull something sick out of my ass for this finish!” they’re fair, and allow for a cool comeback style, instead of derpy ultra combos and freebie X-Factors.
Parries.
thanks.
I simply “fused” normal Parries (or to be precise, my “New Red Parries”) for normal attacks and your type of parry that is situational and only used for Armor Breaking attacks. But still, it also creates a balance in meter usage. Are you going to parry spending meter or will you get chip damage and keep the meter for an all out offensive?
What about being only able to parry normals and grounded moves? Specials and supers and the like can’t be parried you’re given 1-2 frames of execution to pull off. In return you suffer no dmg and gain a…say…+4/+5 for the parry. Then if you whiff the parry then there’s a recovery too it. Which can be punishable.
- Slightly faster walkspeed
- Better anti-airs
- Charge partitioning
Make it so that you can only parry on the ground, and let it deal grey damage.
Considering the fact that there’s likely going to be a guard meter. This makes parrying an option for skilled players to be able to defend even when their guard is almost broken. This also, IMO, helps deal with the one issue with a guard bar where in once the bar is almost empty, it becomes less about pressure and more about (as Mike Z has stated) “tap, tap, tap” - anything to empty the bar and open up a can on the opponent.
Trying to make parry only ground-based is killing half the point of parrying and going back to the absolutely ridiculously awful air game that most Street Fighter have.
No, jumping isn’t always safe in 3rd Strike.
Why do people actually want this horrible “jumping must be ridiculously easy to punish” mentality. The Street Fighter games are so backward and limited by their old 2D design that the only thing that ever made them more interesting and fluid is parrying. Otherwise you feel like a slug that can’t do a damn thing.
SFA had some nice ideas but essentially you can’t jump at all in that game either because you either eat a super or a custom combo. Well, you can jump when they are out of meter.
Exactly what the heck is appealing about this grounded mentality.
If parries exist then there should be no air parry. If I force my opponent to jump and am preparing to AA, he shouldn’t be able to parry it and then punish me. AA’ing consistently is already one of the hardest parts of becoming a good player. Having good AA’s kills a lot of the “scrubby” shit that plagued SF4. But really, I’m against parries in general. Should not exist in SF5. 3S is fantastic but its one-of-a-kind for a reason.
What’s the solution to guard crush? Make mid-range poking strong. Allow characters the ability to actually control space beyond footsie range. If you penetrate my wall then you should be able to get in, apply pressure, and drain my guard crush meter. And my only way out is good blocking and/or taking a gamble with an unsafe reversal.
AA is just different in 3rd Strike. A blank shoryuken is a -counter- move to counter an actual attack, while you can use many other moves to counter air parrying. Certain chains of moves or just jabs can guarantee anti-airs. Going for certain supers can also almost guarantee anti-air or setups.
You can also just be punished by the other player having predicted the jump or reacting to it and going under.
The anti-air game is entirely different but like anything else about 3rd Strike, people just say “omg they can do something I don’t understand how to deal with, but I could deal with it so easily in SF4”.
Why. You ACTUALLY find your anti-air game (incredibly obvious and easy) to be better than 3rd Strike’s air game, full of possibilities and variations? Even a jump is full of air game instead of saying “oh well, he jumped there, so easy to shoryuken”. Which makes jumping nothing but a setup move.
It comes to my attention that a lot of people just have a love thing for the ridiculously predictable.
Honestly, I’d love for them to keep parries the same as 3S. But the suggestion I made was more around an idea of parries being an aid for guard crush.
Because anti-airs in this game are garbage unless you play a shoto-character or Hugo. Cross up jump normals are a mile long not requiring any effort to actually space a cross up properly in SF4, some characters even had jumping normals that beat out invincible AAs outright like Sakura’s old j.hp. There is also the fact that the most damage you’re going to get off of an AA is maybe a raw ultra since there isn’t much of a juggle system in SF4 that allows people to consistently punish bad jumps with decent damage combos. Most AA specials also do more damage to grounded opponents as well since their fist hit will only connect at a low point in the jump most likely after you’d block or get hit by a jump in. Jumping is incredibly forgiving compared to other fighting games.
What about each parry performed taking away 2-3% of your meter? At least then it requires some sort of resource to be used.
@SFJake
Air parrying just adds another layer of guessing to the game. I’m of the opinion that certain things in SF should be guaranteed. If my footsies are good enough that my opponent jumps, I should be guaranteed AA damage if I’m able to react to it. Its just logical and solid to me. Its already hard enough to react within that split-second, let alone having to guess whether to jab, super, or whatever on reaction. This game needs to discourage players from jumping.
@d3v
One of the issues that might exist with parries aiding guard crush is that players on offense might play too safe and passive. You want to drain your opponent’s guard meter but now you have to worry about him parrying and then doing a huge comeback out of nowhere. So, you drop your block string on purpose to bait a parry, but then the guard meter fills back up as a result. I think it might devalue the guard crush.
Also, another reason I don’t want parries is because of how the meta-game might develop. I do not want SF5 to be another game where players are developing pages and pages worth of “OS parry tech” or whatever the hell. Maybe I’m wrong and this might not even happen. But I’m still concerned.
I don’t know, what do you think?
IMO, parry requiring meter would only work if it were done by a button press and had a visible whiff animation. The drawback of parry was always the execution it required and risk it entailed.
I rarely parry in 3s. I have yet to ever parry low, or in the air, and I have been playing forever. If people knew that they would probably beat me more. The mental aspect of it being available changes the game. Thinking that I might parry. When I see someone who tries to parry. I go into throw mix ups. The parry makes the game exciting and fun. Aren’t games supposed to be fun?
Parries aren’t abusive as some may think. At high level play you rarely see it. It can be a gamble. I say make the timing like CvS2 since it’s a little tighter. At the least make it an available game option for those that enjoy it. Give us our own lobby.
Your blame is misdirected: the real issue there were the very fast startups of some of the Super Arts (2 or 3 frames) and the lights being super cancellable. Take those two out of the picture and you can no longer get parried into super: the punish would be a simple BnB, which I would find totally fine. Another way to view it is that those cancellable lights and fast super arts turned those big damage combos into the de facto BnBs.
This prompts me to insist that Super Moves must not have any animation freeze at all. Once you decide you want some animation freeze for supers because of the stupid dramatic effect, there’s only two ways to avoid having unplayable supers:
[list]
[] Give them fast startups or make normals super cancellable, which make them able to be comboed from everything and make the BnBs way too damaging (the 3S way)
[] Give them invincible frame on startups, which makes them ideal for mashing (SF4 approach).
[/list]Disappear the animation freeze and supers can be given decent startup frames (5-6) without any invulnerability, they are useful for reads and whiff punishing and some of big punish combos.
Regarding parry implementation, I repeat my proposal: make parries consume guard bar, but in different amount than blocking. That puts a natural limit on a player ability to parry, make easy to keep parrying for some characters on check by giving them small guard bars and allows moves to be tailored in order to be vulnerable or good against parrying:
[list]
[] Fireballs from characters that specialize on them like Ryu could take little guard bar when blocked but a lot of bar when parried (50 % of the average character guard bar). That way, grapplers still have a little leverage to get in but the zoning player now keeps the incentive to throw fireballs.
[] Other moves used for pressure or chip damage (for example, Scissor kicks) could take a lot of guard bar but little when parried, that way the pressuring character can break lazy players on downback but needs to mix his options against someone who is paying attention.
[*]
[/list]
I think we can have all the fun from parrying without the negative stigma that comes from it. Hope we can see a moment 37 like trailer of SFV in the future.
If parrying comes back it needs to be tweaked, I’m not sure since I’m obviously not a game designer but “parry breakers” and no parrying projectiles would be the best course of action, I think. Reintroduce Alpha Counters, have them cost meter and allow them to beat “parry breakers” meaning that while projectile characters will be exempt from the defensive option of parries, largely, it’ll also mean that when they do get rushed down, they will have to hoard meter in order to get rushdown characters off of them.