I’d say players coming from games like MKX are going to be looking for characters who can easily mixup and it’s these players that are going to have to adjust the most to SF5.
I don’t believe it’s found in any fighting game manual “oh yeah if you land one sweep or throw, the other player has to sit there and take your safe jump + OS until you win. Good job on hitting the right buttons!” So with that, there’s no such thing as getting rewarded for already doing a winning maneuver. You get rewarded by the victory alone.
You can still do mix-ups and setups after knockdown in SF5. You just don’t get the safe jump anymore. If you’re good, you shouldn’t need a safe jump to win.
I don’t see how this proves your point… Like at all:
- there was no safejump in that video. I wouldn’t even know that had you not said anything, but you said it in your comments… The point is, if you wanted to prove that it was a known thing that people went for on purpose, you should have posted a video from that era where the safejump is used and abused in an obvious way… Against the characters that it works against. Not some random video where it appears there is no timing involved and it’s simply sweep> jump at opponent (and doesn’t even work as per the matchup). They easily could have just been going for j.hk unawares that it’s a safejump setup against certain characters. I probably did this same shit when I was playing… It proves nothing.
- I don’t know from when that video actually came from, but I know that it more than likely was after the daigo Valle A3 tournament because that was when daigo switched mains from v akuma to ryu. Point being that it was after the v shit started taking over and stopped playing that game… So hey you could be perfectly right. Also, the fact that the ryu jumped in with j.mp as a try at a high/low mixup kinda proves your point that that ryu thought that his jumpin would be blocked. But it further proves that if they did know of this tech, they certainly didn’t fully know it since they are using it in the wrong matchup…
Ok so anyways, the point was never that this was unknown. I actually have a proper vid that safejumps were known of as far back as super (the slow one) but that means nothing since it wasn’t widely known and it hadn’t trickled down into mainstream play. All I’m saying is that this wasn’t mainstream and no one was abusing it. Where’s in sf4 I had people abusing them on my chun wake ups EVERY TIME.
thsts the only point that I was making, not that this was completely unknown. When I find the safejump vid I’ll post it on this post.
-edit. I can’t find the vid. Google is being stupid today or whatever. It’s mike Watson versus jumpsuit Jesses fei long. Watson very obviously goes for a safejump against Jesse and Jesse tries to reversal flame kick and it gets blocked and Watson punishes, then Watson does it again and I think the same result, then Watson does it again and Jesse wises up and blocks and then watson throws him… Or something along those lines.
You can hear the spectators in the vid that are Jesses friends go “bullshit” when the first safejump is used cause they obviously had no idea what it was. But the fact that Watson repeats it and that Jesse learns to not dp shows that it is definitely being done intentionally.
Unfortunately I can’t find the video though, but I wanted to link it to prove that yes I know that safejumps were known of As far back as that. And that it doesn’t matter, they certainly weren’t mainstream at the time.
SFV’s pacing seems to be more akin to CVS2. Whether it’s on purpose or not. CVS2 can be a fast game if you watch an SNK groove with certain characters fight, but the lack of moves that lead to quick mix ups, the unsafeness of most specials and short throw ranges combined with all of the defensive tools keeps the fights more Samurai Showdown ish with lots of stops during footsies and such.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-DAaSUwZEA
In SFV the game almost seems to animate slower on purpose to accentuate the animations and such. Which was kinda how 3S was (had some normals with really long start times and animations), but 3S still had faster walk speeds for part of the cast and smaller stages. Without as many strong charge characters and big emphasis on dashing, jumping and parrying attacks, the game kept moving at a fast pace.
3S and Alpha 3 are both games where you can still jump and weave in and out of footsies a lot since the defensive options usually aren’t too strong. In CVS2 there’s so many things in most of the grooves that give you a reason to not do anything and jumps are a bit slower making anti airs more obvious. It makes CVS2 a weird entry as far as SF fundamentals go because it has a bunch of things that are potentially really cheap, but all of the options available to you keeps the game very honest and almost stiff at times instead of chaotic. Just a few changes in the gameplay could have had the game playing a lot more chaotic.
Improvements:
+ Easier combo inputs
+ More varied play styles even between character “types” (such as “grapplers”)
+ More focus on (and rewards for) defense, tactics, punishing, footsies, ect. (less spam, less damage off combos, less stun off of non-counter, ect)
+ Longer window for grab reversal (and/or a way to soften the grab effects if you are a bit too late, like in HDR)
+ Balanced moves (priority is far from perfect, and some moves are just more useful in more common situations so you end up seeing repetition)
+ More feints, emphasis on counters, reversals, and movement options.
Mechanics:
+ Guard Meter to prevent excessive Turtling
+ A way to cancel out of either a missed Ultra/Super (or whatever their current equivalents are) by sacrificing the other (full bar only).
+ A way to slowly regenerate small health at the cost of both Super/Ultra Meters
+ Stamina Meter. Sort of like the opposite of a Guard Meter, it would prevent absolute Rushes.
+ Taunts should have minor effects, something like SF3/Budokai/SSB.
+ Minor interactive environments, such as taking more damage from being knocked through things (but nothing cray like SSB or Injustice).
These things would add more depth and fairness to a the game, while making execution less of an issue than actually playing the game while also providing more options and involvement from players, and would allow different players to utilize different tactics and styles with the same characters.
Yeah, the spacing seems rather CvS2-ish at times as well as the way you need to get in close. I really like that but then it kinda gets into 3S levels of gameplay too. Whereas now instead of all the tools granted by the groove system in CvS2, characters have v-skills n triggers to change the dynamic of the match for whatever result.
I kind of wouldn’t mind an extra mechanic like a roll or something added in, would really make things crazy.
Yeah, luckily the V Triggers for most characters pretty much = anime mode and allow the characters new options for pressure and mix ups that are very hard to block on reaction. Which means one way or another you’re going to have a game that’s faster paced than CVS2 as it gets fleshed out.
Idk. The jury is still out for me as far as the pacing goes for sf5 and whether it will be more offensive or more defensive. One thing I always take with a grain of salt is what top players say about a game after having played it for a day or so… For whatever reason they seem to get shit wrong (Dudley will run sf4, adon is terrible in sf4, mvc3 is balanced well) etc etc
I’ve always seen cvs2 as a defensive game. If has the mechanics to be offensive, it’s all there, but as Dj said the defensive mechanics seem to overpower the offensive ones. I mean the game has a run and a good one at that, but it’s still very defensive even in run grooves even though in the earlier life of the game people were doing jab> run, jab> run, rushdown, and even though the game has a guard meter.
I’ve never been quite able to figure out why cvs2 is as defensive as it is. It may be that anti airs are to good for the offense that they can be exposed to, which allows people to defensively control ground space a bit easily. But in any game one thing I know is that games that have good ways of moving forward are generally very offensive, and those that dont… Are usually defensive. (Good ways to move forward are either fast ways or high priority ways or safe on block ways or some combination of those properties)
The thing that gives me hope for sf5 that few people have mentioned, is that in sf5 it seems like dashes recover VERY quickly and so there might be more incentive to go for dash based offense ala 3S.
But yeah, if they want more offensive games they will have to put in more offensively good ways to advance on the opponent.
Yeah Nuki’s Ohnuki run pressure was good for the like the first year of 2. Once roll cancelling got figured out and people got good with P/K groove it got really hard to pressure people without taking big risks. V isms guard meter was shorter compared to CVS2’s universally larger guard meter and in general there was just a lot of invincibility from RC’s, reversals from alpha counters and P/K groove parry and JDing where things were usually pretty honest despite all the cheap stuff you could do.
The mix ups in CVS2 were generally soft because of the lack of safe specials or things that reliably crossed up. Overheads are notoriously slow in CVS2 also. That packed on with a shit load of defensive options (both naturally in game and glitches like RC) make it tough to mount an offense and put pressure on people reliably. SNK grooves with small jumps were tough to use also as I believe unlike KOF, there was a forced disadvantage on block for doing a jump normal during a small jump. You didn’t get the same plus advantage like you did on a regular jump which allowed people to super punish you rather easily. There’s no super small jumps either.
Yeah it seems obvious that dashes were done like they were in SFV to force 3S style uses of dashes in footsies. Weaving in and out of throw range with footsies and such.
I’m pretty sure V Trigger will be the deciding factor that eventually gets people to play more aggressively. It’s not exactly what people may want as it kinda forces people to only get really aggressive once they get an activation ready, but at least you can gain it quickly enough to make things interesting quickly.
Great post DJ 
Just to add, there is forced recovery not only on block on a hop attack, but on whiff and on hit. So timing a jump-in combo is different from a hop-in combo and the hop-in has to hit much deeper so you can link stuff. Been practicing Kyo and Iori stuff so I can have something that looks like my KOF game, but yeah hops aren’t really that strong in comparison and really easy to block. And yeah, doing neutral hop and back hop whiffed normals to check space is kinda bad due to recovery added and stuff like RC Blanka Ball and Psycho Crusher in the game.
Although, hops had no recovery if they were empty hops. So I do a safe hop that functions backwards. In KOF, you do a hop-in normal and block if they DP’d and you punish then you make them respect you then you go empty into low and throw. In CVS2, I have to empty low every time to block reversals and either throw and low until they respect me then I do a hop in that otherwise would be blown up.
EDIT: Another thing to add. As much as I like CVS2, I hate to say it but KOF98 in comparison not only has a strong offensive game in terms of frame traps and pressure and high/low/throw/cross-up kind of game, it also has a much, much stronger projectile and zoning game than CVS2. So I hate to say it like this, but KOF98 not only does offense better but also does zoning and defense better without needing to RC stuff or use mechanics such as Parry or Just Defend. There’s more nuances to everything. CVS2 is like down-back is king and react and punish is truth. What I consider strong offense in the game is stuff like A-Blanka with RC Electricity oki game between RC Elec and throw along with left/right mix-up through body hop and Blanka ball. In return too though he can also play the lamest game you’ve seen. Other strong offense I guess would be Morrigan and Nakoruru type of pressure and mix-ups but in return these characters don’t have health or the damage output of the other characters. Certain characters like Yun and Rolento can be strong especially with RC or in maybe N-Groove but again their damage output for their combos are low and then have low health.
So the characters capable of scarier offense also have little damage output and health while if played in K-Groove to compensate for damage, they are susceptible to A-Groove Sakura to guard break them as well as standard A-Blanka defense and offense (Blanka can be played in other grooves too though like C/N/K)
If it weren’t for characters like Blanka, Honda, Claw, and Dictator, I can kind of run KOF style spacing, defense, and offense in the current form of CVS2. But with those strong full screen RC moves that tag hops (and running has more recovery than KOF before you can stop and guard), I have to play a very SF like game also in which fireballs have very little meaning in spacing unless I’m maybe C/A-Guile. K and N Groove slow down for me as I continue to play against experienced Blanka, Honda, and Dictator players because of their downback RC moves but still have juice to do RC Elec, RC Hundred Hands, Dictator hit/throw offense on my wake up and check my quick techs with punishes. Then Claw’s buttons and jump speeds kind of kill any forward hop approach and back/neutral hop spacing that I’m also forced into an SF style footsie and spacing game.
All this excites me since if the game does pan out this way, then maybe I can finally kick BAS of his ass and get him to start playing this game seriously (instead of his half hearted SFIV play).
There are two parts to the set. Daigo does it every time (watch both videos and count how many times) he lands a sweep except when he’s out of range for a x-up when he has V-ISM. He also does it in the other hour long vid I posted. And this isn’t some “random” video, it’s one of the most famous showcases of Ryu A3 play. What timing is required after cr.hk, j.hk/j.hp? As I said, it’s still effective against Ryu because reversals in the Alpha series are true 1f reversals (you can’t piano them). People use it in SFIV as well against Ryu because he still has to guess between empty jump low and empty jump block.
Do you really think it’s simply a coincidence? Would you like to see a famous ST match where he uses it to bait a reversal? People have been using safe jump DP since long before SFIV (the Japanese called it “minimum logic”):
Read the rest of that quote, specifically the bottom. Then go up to my previous post and read the bottom of that post.
I was responding to this:
I’m not saying that SFIV isn’t jump-setup heavy, or that other games are just the same, I’m saying that the most well-known and common option select in SFIV isn’t based on an excessively long knockdown time by SF standards and it’s not anything new. Whether or not it was “mainstream” knowledge is debatable because in the old days “new” tech in the West was pretty much standard tech in Japan eg. CPS1 chains which the West only discovered in HF were already known about in WW soon after it was released in Japan. In SFIV they were using anti-backdash OS in SFIV since day 1 (because they knew of the concept from ST) but we only spotted it after Daigo vs Justin at the US Nationals.
If they have challenge mode, please put in demos capcom pretty much everyone does
I’m pretty certain SF5 is gonna have trials. Only question is how good/practical they will be. Pretty much most if not all of the trials found in SF4 are useless, waste too much meter, are very situational, or work only in the corner
We’ll see though
I dont mind the impractical combos since it is a challenge mode after all. Challenge and tutorial should be kept separate.
Sure, if there’s already a mode which teaches you to play the game, having a separate mode for “here’s some flashy shit” would be fine, but that’s not what happens, so don’t act like that’s a likely option here.
Based on history, we’re only getting one “do some moves on a dummy mode”, so it really needs to actually at least try to point new players towards what they need to learn, instead of like SFIV, where you absolutely had people who didn’t know any better constantly trying to do trials, thinking it would help them online, which is just a waste of time for everybody concerned.
Honestly, with people having access to the beta and figuring out stuff, the trials should be based on BnBs players develop. Look at the stuff in GGXrd, most, if not all of the combos it teaches you are practical stuff you’d need to do in game.