Dang that’s a really small window.
Thanks for linking that video though they are actually somewhat competent players.
Well hopefully they’re tweaking that, it seems like in theory counter-hit on throw whiff would be great but who knows.
I partially disagree with that when they’re slower, have less range, can’t be kara’ed, do the same damage (or less in the case of some characters) and give no oki afterwards (ryu’s f.throw may be a notable exception). So you’re basing this mostly on the fact they do 60-50 more stun which could be a bit of perception bias from having the stun bar.
I just hope the way to punish stand techs doesn’t end up being neutral jump after the first light, which seems the go to option at this rudimentary stage and the e3 gameplay.
I get some SF x T vibes for throws in this game.
I would prefer them to be great, but thats why I used the word solid since when you are finally in the short tech windows and their stun is pretty threatening. Its just the games other issues shorten their potential a bit.
Getting strong oki after a throw isnt normal for most throws in older SF games so thats fine I think. In Alpha 2/3/3S and CVS2 they’re mainly there to just break up blocking until you can land a normal or overhead if they’re scared of teching incorrectly.
In 3S specifically you can tech immediately just like in V so you do usually have to chase after a throw unless they are in the corner. Both of Necros throws throw you across the screen, but if you’re in the corner thryre much stronger.
The throws are most likely nearly fine where they are, just need better neutral tools so its easier to get in position for them. The game’s neutral issues make them worse than they have the chance of being.
Yeah, you don’t need super ultra good oki off throws; you should generally be able to get a meaty but that’s all that’s necessary. Right now throws are pretty weak because the ability to tick them just isn’t really there. Cammy and Nash can threaten them decently well but a single medium from Bison or Ryu pushes you too far out to really be scary with the strike/throw game.
I think it’s less the throws being off and more the things which enable the throws, and not just walk speed since dashes are decent enough.
So yeah pushback and maybe the hitboxes/hurtboxes on things. You want stuff other than jabs/shorts to convincingly threaten those moves.
Like I said before, in 3S jabs/shorts usually have large vulnerable hurtboxes. Their ‘priority’ is their startup speed, not the area they cover or their invulnerability.
Compare these two:
USF4 Ryu jab: http://decapre.com/watch?v=MW8WwWNO0nE
3S Ryu jab: http://ensabahnur.free.fr/BastonNew/hitboxesDisplay.php?sMode=f&iChar=2&sMoveType=fd_normals&sAction=w&iMove=7
So in 4, Ryu’s low jab will eat a lot of other moves because of how large that active hitbox is and he quickly retracts his arm, there isn’t even an arm hurtbox.
In 3S, His whole arm has a hurtbox through the active and part of the recovery. So it won’t beat things unless it’s placed perfectly.
In my mind that hurts the throw game if the hitboxes/hurtboxes resemble what 4 does there. If you look at Ryu’s fierce and jab from 4, his jab can beat his fierce, not even trade. That can’t happen in 3S. Actually the hit/hurtboxes in 4 are just weird to begin with. It seems like the trend is something is active, it has a huge active area and no extra hurtbox, and then in recovery the limb has the auto hurtboxes going on.
As someone that played sf4 at one of the highest levels it could be played at at the time before console (played at arcade infinity and at v94 in so cal, where basically a whos who of top players played at the time) i unilaterally disagree with caliagent#3 about his last post.
I was quite a decent player with chun back then before console, not top by any means but i could hold my own. I had a 69 game winstreak at AI… The longest winstreak on the machine for MONTHS.
In thise days EVERYONE used standtech because no one figured out that CT was so good yet. My offense was basically jab throw, jab jab throw, jab delay cr.lk xx exlegs, jab jab walkup cr.lk xx ex legs etc etc… Shit was good. And i could use that kind of offense with jst about every character that had a bnb off of a low.
My win rate plummeted when tatsu started to crouchtech everything and people eventually started to follow in his footsteps. Thats one of the biggest reasons why i dropped chun and went to ibuki.
Not being able to throw people well in sf4 is ABSOLUTELY because of crouchtech.
The fact that there are things like slow walkspeed only exacerbates the issue… They certainly dont create the issue.
And low pushback on normals and no throw invulnerability in wakeup doesnt HURT throws… Like i canf believe thats even a stated reason.
Nerfing damage on supers is definitely a step in the wrong direction. The big damage and fast paced matches was a breath of fresh air, I just hope we don’t keep slipping backwards and end up with SF4 2.0.
I’m really not sure what their approach to the meter economy is in this game. Can @Eternal or someone else well versed in SF4 write up how the meter economy was there? Since quite frankly I mainly played Bison and Sakura who used meter either pretty much purely as a reversal/anti-fireball tool for Bison or spend it as you get it with Sakura and they had vastly different meter curves for practical combos (as nobody tended to FADC a regular Shouken into tatsu loops).
Current revision. Cut out some of the things from the last list that I felt were already fixed or didn’t have much chance of being fixed. Again, these will be prefaced as suggestions and not necessarily demands or things we will go to Capcom with pitchforks for if not done.
Let me know if you like this to send to Unity pretty soon. Gonna be leaving for vacation for a couple weeks so gotta get this finalized before Saturday. Which we will do another one of these after the 2nd beta.
- Pushback on block for positive and negative normals are in reverse and should be switched to fit the purpose of the normals better (further description of both below).
1.Pushback should be lessened on light/medium/heavy normals that are plus or zero on block and set up tick throws well (Ryu’s/Chun’s s.MP or Chun’s c.LK are good examples). As of now you end up being inordinately punished on landing light and medium normals on block (generally the only ones with frame advantage) by being pushed out after landing them. Making it difficult to set up throws with the slow walk speeds and throw ranges. Now that light normals normally do not link into mediums, lessening the pushback on them would make more sense as there subsequently won’t be as much reward for landing them. Being pushed away for being plus defeats the purpose of being plus.
**2. Pushback on block for negative normals that are strong in neutral should be extended (especially ones that don’t cause a crush counter). ** Right now you are kept really close for punishes on negative normals that are normally still strong in neutral like Ryu’s c.MK, fireball and sweep, despite them being negative. This compounds the issue of the shortage of true block strings as not only is Ryu’s c.MK to fireball unsafe on block, not a true string and doesn’t combo at max range, but also is difficult to land safely due to lack of push on block for both the c.MK and fireball. Making a punish way too easy on such a fundamental element of his gameplan. Things like sweeps and other low normals are that are 0 or unsafe tend to be difficult to use in neutral due to this.
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**Increase range of lower normal hit boxes. ** This will help the above issue so that players can feel like they are in range to poke or start a ranged pressure game without being punished or worrying about the opponent walking/dashing back and making them whiff so easily.
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Continue to emphasize block stun and allowing more block strings to be true block strings. Only jabs creating true block strings in SFIV really limited the type of pressure you could apply in conjunction with the invincible dashes. Even if this can’t be applied to all the strings, at least certain normal to special cancels like c.MK to hadoken should create a true string at all times.
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Make the hurtboxes react more naturally. Right now there are still too many situations where a characters foot in idle standing or crouching animation can not be touched by low forwards and other crouching normals. A good example is when Bison is crouching and his far foot sticks way out but still can’t be touched at all by lower normals.
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Try to create a better medium between fireball and anti fireball options. There seems to be a lot of anti projectile options per character and don’t want another SF game where the projectile zoning characters always have to be walking on eggshells with every projectile they throw. Projectiles should be pertinent and players should have to learn to get around them with spacing and patience rather than just have a ton of tools to bypass them.
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****Redo the round or don’t award a point and create a new round if there is a double KO. ****The opponent who won the first round should not get priority for a double KO. It’s an archaic design that rewards the person who got better momentum in one round too much. It also really screws up a game where both players won a round as it just considers it a draw. If this is fixed so the round is redone it is a lot less work for tournament organizers and more fair for both players as they get another round to prove themselves instead of being punished for trading at the end of a round.
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Improve walk speeds a bit, especially for characters that have slower speeds like Bison, Birdie and Nash. Would prefer something closer to old game walk speeds for characters. Especially if throws are as short ranged as they are.
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Improve the range on throws a tiny bit. They do a lot of damage, stun and have shorter tech windows, but we just don’t see huge importance in them if people can be near each other and whiff and if the pushback on block for positive normals is as strong as it is. Chip damage on normals and higher damage is nice, but at least even a few pixels longer wouldn’t be terrible. Possibly add in a way to shorten the opponent’s throw range if they are mashing grab during block stun or on wake up so the offensive grabber has more priority in grabbing and forces the opponent to tech correctly or whiff.
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Either increase the time that white chip from normal lingers or make the white chip damage larger. Right now walk speeds seem to be too slow and the white chip recovers too quickly for it to be something that will hugely effect matches.
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Possibly adjust the scaling on longer combos. The game’s scaling still seems SFIV like where the longer your combo is, the scaling gets increased at an excessive rate.
On another note I was watching this video with Gootecks explaining fundamentals with Ryu in V. You can see around the 3 minute mark and 16 minute mark that he’s teaching people that they have to be aware that the hit and hurtboxes are wonky and don’t work as they appear on screen. It would be nice if people didn’t have to make strategies around game design flaws. Something that made up too many of the strategies in SFIV.
He’s also teaching people to use sweep to gain extra stun and a quick knockdown, but if its so easily punishable on block for the lack of damage it does, people may not find that advice to be worth it by launch. In the explanation he explains to use it as a whiff punish which as far as Ryu’s sweep in a lot of other games go, I imagine it was used for more things than simply whiff punishing.
I never said that. I said they did so in SFIV and that, along with the other stuff, make the statement of “throws are much stronger in SFV” seem odd to me.
This is completely per character basis. Some characters are liberal with each bar (ie: ryu, cammy), some characters need one bar for their bnbs (dudley, makoto), some characters get a lot off 2 bars for FADC (e. ryu, gen, yang, akuma), many hit a threshold with 3 bars (some charge characters, yun, viper). Very few have actual good supers that are used (gen, dhalsim, “gief”, chun).
It’s also heavily dependant on the player. Arturo spends a lot of bar with Dhalsim but YHC Mochi won’t almost ever spend a bar and instead save for super and start rushing people down. Daigo uses E. Ryu’s super quite frequently. Some sagat players aim for super in the akuma matchup to punish f.hk, etc.
But in general people barely use supers and instead focus on EX moves and FADCs.
[quote=“ilitirit, post:175, topic:176376”]
It’s definitely not in the PAX build.
See here at 9m05s
[/quote]Interesting. I just noticed in this video that the England stage has a subtle reverb and echo effect to mimic the sound of the characters being in a large but enclosed space. Nice touch. I hadn’t picked up on that before.
Projectile impact sound still needs work. They need to dial back the treble.
I feel like maybe you misread him? Or maybe I did.
I read it as him saying the end result due to all the other things in SF4 was that crouchtech blew up throw. So throw went from being OK to being awful because crouchtech really killed it. Because crouchtech exists in other SF titles but it doesn’t destroy throw. So crouchtech isn’t the ‘problem’ it’s everything else that made crouchtech so strong.
While I don’t disagree with what was said about throws in SFIV, I don’t think that people are seeing the big picture.
Yeah, there were a billion ways to blow them up or to avoid them, but yet you still see Bonchan throwing Luffy 4 times in a row on wake up. And Tokido demolishing Ryan Hart with simple tick throws. And Xiao Hai wanting all the Japanese top players opinion on Daigo’s strong throw game. You also have entire sites dedicated to throw-defense techniques in SFIV.
It’s true that throws are virtually pointless to try against to good players. Unless of course you have an alternative strategy, which in SFIV was frame traps. This is something that was known about like within the first month in Japan (“gruppe tsubushi” - “throw-tech crush”) but people in the west only started picking up on it much later because people who didn’t play 3D games weren’t used to loose strings and counter-hit setups. Hell, I remember a huge SFIV thread in FGD one month with James Chen trying to defend SFIV from everyone who hated it. When the topic of Throws and Frame Traps came up, the only people who knew what they were the Tekken, SC and VF players. Even James Chen had never heard of it before. If you played 3D games - especially VF - loose strings and frame traps were nothing new. Abare was nothing new (Read this for a chuckle).
Frame traps (and options selects) in SFIV only started getting noticed more than a year after the game’s release. After SBO 2009 to be exact, because that’s when Nemo first retired and posted a document filled with his own Chun Li tech. While some Chun players already knew about it, most players first read about the technique there: tick, close st.HK, confirm the CH and then Hazanshu. This basically opened up a new aspect of the close up game. People started noticing that when AC Revenger was doing overhead into step kick it wasn’t luck - it was a planned frame trap. Tokido’s cr.mp into sweep. Uryo’s godlike CH cr.mp into Viper U1.
Dime_x was absolutely right when he said crouch tech destroyed throws. But frame traps destroyed crouch tech. Which brings me to my point: while throws were undeniably weak in SFIV, frame traps were a strong compromise. After all, the point of throws were really to opponent up the opponent. Against a good player you really have to think very carefully about whether you want to risk the positioning by getting thrown or damage from the frame trap. I mean we got to situations at top level where PR Rog was blowing up crouch tech with one of the worst focus attacks in the game - at the highest level of play!
And SFIV doesn’t even have the weakest throws in the series. SFxT has weaker throws, but getting frame trapped in SFxT was basically GGs and of course throws took off grey health. In A3 throws are pretty much useless, but you would really rather get thrown than guard crushed. Same in KOF. Melty has bad throws as well. The throw system on it’s own isn’t what makes the close-up game strong or fun.
If I had to choose something I disliked the most about SFIV’s throw system is that throw teching is too disruptive to momentum and has variable positioning because of backdash distances. This appears to have been fixed in SFV, but that doesn’t matter if the rest of the close-up is ass, which I really, really hope it isn’t.
Do you think then that the large difference with frame traps plus the lack of crouchtech is making things seem off with 5 compared to 4?
That makes me feel like the solution is more of just an adjustment in approach.
Maybe dash throw is more what it will look like then.
I personally thought it was OK until they removed counter-hit on throw whiff. For a moment I thought someone said it’s still in but only on recovery but that’s not in either. Counter-hit on throw attempts could have potentially made up for the other issues. But since lows aren’t that scary any more, a slightly delayed standing tech isn’t that risky because:
- you can’t get counter-hit
- you’re likely to get pushed out of range of big combos
- if the opponent tries to walk up and do something they risk getting thrown themselves
I need to spend more time with the game to wrap my head around the options but that’s how I see it at the moment.
umm what? there’s no way older players were not crouch teching day 1 of sf4. The group of people I usually play with were doing it. I know new players definitely had no idea about crouch techs or even the buffer option selects off of normals, but older players were definitely doing it day 1. Everyone was crouch teching in all of the old games majority of the time so why would that suddenly stop in sf4? Crouch teching does not hurt throws in any way. We have 20+ yrs of proof starting with ST. Even SFxT had a way better throw game and it mimicked older SFs. SF4 is the only outlier and that’s due to a combination of factors that I mentioned in my previous post.
Crouch teching was regularly used in 3S and that was the most popular competitive SF before SFIV so I imagine people should have known about it day one.
People knew about it, crouchteching that is, i even heard it mentioned in the arcade. But people WERE NOT crouchteching 3 times during your blockstring like what tatsu did. I played right next to these guys and thd joysticks were modtly silent. Perhaps some of them were crouchteching but they certainly werent multiple times CT during blockstrings.
Yes I’m worried about this as well. The E3 tactics to punish stand throws evolved into tick neutral jump which is stupid. To see Combofiend do the same as a response to it is disheartening.
Hopefully characters like Cammy, Rashid or Chun (say if v-skill is airborne early) can punish that .
It just seems obvious to have a throw which is hit be a counter-hit.
Why wouldn’t it be? It makes baiting a throw from the defender so much scarier which makes throws themselves that much better…
There must be more going on. Man I would really like to mess around with the most recent build and see how it actually feels.
People of course know about the concept but did you really play with people who crouchteched in third strike? Used short to poke at someone sure but a crouchtech? I’ve pretty much never seen it in 3S and it isn’t like I have played with shmucks.