I don’t think Akuma is still 6-4. I think in prior versions of SF4 it used to be, but Chun’s health buff plus delayed wakeup plus DP FADC nerfs plus Akuma’s general nerfs… I think make the match closer to even. It’s still disadvantageous but I’d call it 5.5-4.5.
Akuma still has a lot of ways to control the pace of the match, but I think in Ultra the matchup is better than it has ever been.
Maybe your right about 5.5-4.5, But Akuma didn’t really get nerfed. The DP nerf was a global nerf and the sweep cancel into W.Raging Demon isn’t that serious, he can still cancel into super. Sweep cancel ultra didn’t make Akuma good, his wide range of tools and his ability to have multiple play styles did ; The nerf DP FADC > Forward dash -5 killed FADC on 2nd/3rd hit… so making it unFADC-able didn’t matter. He mostly has buffs for bigger combo ability and one new option for demon flip. I only see one nerf.
You are right about Chun being better, she can probable benefit from dwu a lot and can take slightly more risk. Dwu will mess with some setups a lot and Chun has another option if he tries to do the corner unblockable ; but people are trying new unblockable setups for dwu now, soon dwu wouldn’t matter… it almost doesn’t on Akuma’s DFK setups already.
No more Demon from sweep is big to me because it essentially means he is punishing you for punishing him. If you FA the sweep or try to punish it, you should be rewarded for making the right judgment call. But then he can turn the tables with U1 and say fuck your punish, I’m getting a shitload of damage and a hard knockdown to run more setups on you with!
It’s true he can still cancel into Super but it’s a lot less common for Akuma to have Super stocked than it is for him to have Ultra stocked.
I got murdered so fast by an Adon last night. Dude had 4,000pp, so I figure he knew a thing or two about what he was doing. I wanted to get a run-back, so I could try and figure a few things out but he was an asshole and just booted me. Worst part of this match-up, I feel, is that his wall-dive is safe and puts you in an uncomfortable reset position. You can get frame-trapped, you can eat an fadc-shoryu, or you can back yourself into the corner. His footspeed is insane, to boot, and focus attack is all but useless against him. If this match-up is even, then it must feel pretty trying on behalf of the Adon player, also. My feeling is that he has a slight advantage. St.mp works to shut down some of his jaguar shenanigans, but you’ve still got to watch out for him simply jumping over pokes or walking you into the corner.
Which is also something defensive Akuma’s have to worry about. That teleport of his isn’t really so hot if the Chun-Li player knows to expect it. I think you’re over-estimating Akuma’s tools by a good margin, Rexsinon. His srk is perhaps the weakest in the game, and is virtually only useful for adding stun and extra damage on the end of his combos. They increased the recovery, did they not, on his neutral jump fireballs, or was it jump-away? I seem to think it was jump away, which is kinda useless, anyhow, because Chun-Li could always dash-hosenka through that. Any-time Chun-Li trades with Akuma whilst he is in the air, it’s in Chun-Li’s favour. She resets him, she pulls ahead in damage, and she moves forwards. His neutral tools? Sweep? Prone to focus crumple. Forward+hk? It’s better now, I suppose, that it hits crouching Chun-Li on the second hit (I think?), but it still loses out to st.mp. He doesn’t have a good tatsu to deal with Kikoken, so he has to rely on neutralizing them in the air; And, you seem to think that Akuma has it better on Chun-Li in a knock-down situation than Chun-Li has it against Akuma in a knock-down situation. His reversals are poor. If he doesn’t opt to teleport, anything else he presses gets him punished. So what do you assume? Teleport or block.
Akuma’s vortex is very unreliable at this point. He really cant get his wakeup pressure going at all anymore. This isnt 2012. Chun li controls every other aspect of the match. Akuma has no reliable damage since his wakeup pressure isnt as good. His best option would be low forward into hado for a longer combo, but its really unreliable and is easy to get blown up.
Even if his vortex still existed in a reliable manner (it does not), the fact that we can punish sweep reliably means the match would be 5-5. With DWU, its 6-4 Chuns favor, easy call.
The O/S Sweep is irrelevant now. DWU exists. This isnt 2012. You cant just “do” option selects on wakeup anymore.
Akuma got major nerfs. Mark my words, as time goes on Akuma will be seen as a textbook example of a mediocre (middle of the road) character in ultra.
Irrelevant means having no bearing or connection with the subject ; We are talking about a match-up and everything that can change the match-up(Setup-ups/Buffs/nerfs/new mechanics), so I don’t see O/S being irrelevant.
You can get 360+ damage no meter every combo with Akuma… easy, an Example: (works on characters with a similar hitbox of ryu) J.HK > S.HK > S.LP > S.HP xx H.Tatsu(Good spacing required) It’s 700 stun. The reason that combo works is because of his Far Standing HP buff, this proves there are many high damage combos to be found. “Akuma got major nerfs” not true, Air-fireball nerfed by 2 frames isn’t serious. Shoryuken FADC on 2nd/3rd hit was already killed by the global DP nerf and that was nerfed because it was abused by many top players ; Sweep cancel WR.demon isn’t that serious either. I don’t see much damage done to Akuma. Chun can’t punish Akuma’s Fireball game most of the time unless she gets ultra, A smart Akuma won’t spam fireballs when chun is in punishing distance. Akuma still has some good resets too, Jump in >HP or S.Mk(For crouching targets) xx L.Tatsu > S.HP > Demon flip etc. Chun only has 950 health/1050 stun, 1 reset equals stun on her just like the rest of the cast ; 360+ damage is a lot on Chun. DWU is only adds 11 frames right ? , there will be setups universal enough to be done on both DWU and regular wake-up ; If I’m not wrong… DWU can only be done on hard knockdowns(couldn’t get DWU to activate on regular wake-up).
Demon flip kicks hitbox are active till they reach the floor, It will always stuff Chun’s wake-up attack in the center… she has no wake-up. Even if Akuma can’t get pressure on their wake, that would make it more easy for Akuma players to decide to go for a mix-up or damage. Akuma’s damage wasn’t nerfed, but his combo ability was buffs ; that opens to doors to undiscovered tech. S.HP is a HUGE buff for him, S.MK too.
It was nerfed by 2 frames , not much.
Block and TP the first chance you get, tech throws ; Shoryuken Hazanshu on reaction(It’s not that fast) Shoryuken usually wins and even if you get a trade with her ex… I think it’s in his favor because they get pushed far off each other, giving Akuma space.
His Shoryuken isn’t the worst, and the recovery wasn’t touched. You can Shoryuken her Spinning bird kicks all of them(ex for ex), so even if you wiff DFK one read you win.
if you still get hit by that terrible OS its your own fault for not using DWU. There is no reason to allow any akuma player to use that shit anymore.
Yeah Akuma has some high damage combos, but I dont think he has many opportunities to land them. Hes not going to be on the offensive much because if he gets close, then Chuns pressure starts, and that alone is better than anything he has in this match anymore.
Yes, Akuma got major nerfs because his OPPORUNITIES for big damage are seriously limited now.
You like many players have yet to realize ultra is fundamentally different than 2012.
demon flip kicks also dont matter, that thing never reliably stuffed EX SBK. Most Akumas screw the timing up, add in DWU and even good ones will not be able to do it reliably.
Talk to LoyalSol if you think Akuma wins the matchup and you dont believe me. Its a clear 6-4.
Just because a character has combos doesnt mean they have the ability to land them. Chun li has an infinite, why isnt she considered S tier?
Chun doesn’t have much pressure, as for mix-up game ; throw mix-ups and light cross-ups are all I see.
“Talk to LoyalSol”, It’s my opinion… I always felt that fight was easy ; even in this version. Most Akuma’s I have seen play against Chun make it look free. Brolyleg’s thinks it’s 6-4 Akuma’s favor too and he’s rank 1 Chun
If it’s 5-5, it’s 5-5… DWU they both can use it, DWU doesn’t just benefit Chun.
Just because we got DWU doesn’t mean the vortex’s is dead.
Akuma isn’t a easy character to play, drop combos and poor timing on your mix-ups ; that’s the players fault not the character.
It’s still more a guess wrong you lose match, and one guess wrong from Chun it could be the match.
The scaling on Chun’s infinite is really high. Edit- It will take for ever to finish, increasing chances for you(the player) to drop it.
her pressure comes from her use of normals, focus attack (looking for counter hit, especially since his sweep cant cancel into demon now) and throws… At mid range she dominates, a little closer she can lock him down with normals.
Yeah, the problem with your opinion is that you’re trying to use facts. What you’re doing right now is equivalent to saying “Its my opinion that the moon is made of cheese”
At that point you arent stating an opinion, you’re stating something that verifiably true or false and then saying “its my opinion” when you’re shown to be incorrect. An opinion is like “blue is the best color.”
yeah man, broly is totally the best chun ever.
DWU doesnt benefit Akuma in this match because she doesnt really have any wakeup mixups other than overhead stuff which is manually timed anyway.
the vortex isnt dead, but for akuma, it basically is. I wouldnt say he even has a real vortex anymore, he has setups. A vortex is defined as a setup that leads to its self again. Since DWU came into being, you cant say any of the setups lead into themselves again because he cant be sure you wont DWU.
Im sure Akuma has DWU setups that arent bad, but they certainly havent caught up to 2012 Akuma. I havent seen any universal setups that keep you in it, that is, to make it a vortex. I’d be interested in seeing them if they exist, especially if they can deal with EX SBK or some other option. Because before Akuma could cover everything, he cant anymore and the risk/reward is in Chuns favor.
I said it was an opinion when you tried to bring someone else into this discussion so he can share his opinion.
I was never proven wrong.
DFK stuffs ex-SPD it’s not good for wake-up, a decent Akuma will have his timing down(don’t compare online play to offline either). How about this setup HP > L.Tatsu > S.HP > DFK It’s a reset and will always stuff SPD ; That’s a infinite reset on Chun, switch up with DFG or palm wiff grab etc. O/S sweep is valuable in that setup too.
There is no pressure with Chun(Not even close to yun), Akuma will just sit and tech and wait for something dumb like Hazanshu(DP on reaction) or a sweep(cr.MK > hado).
Edit- wiffing on a setup with Akuma doesn’t give Chun the advantage automatically she still has to worry about DP(He’s not that punishable on DF), Ex Dp beat your Ex-SPD.
I can say the same thing( yeah man, Loyal Sol is the best Akuma ever).
How do chun players feel about the evil ryu match-up? I hate it. I feel like i’m fighting dhalsim with burst damage. Ex kicks into ultra is why i can’t sleep at night…
I find it funny how this “chun-li is top tier” thread seems to have become a match up discussion thread.
I don’t particularly care for the E-Ryu vs Chun match up (as I expressed in a thread [here](Evil Ryu Advice but I do feel like I’ve gotten better at it largely through the fact that E-ryu is so popular online that I’ve probably gotten more experience with it since Ultra hit then any other match, while I"m guessing chun’s are low enough in popularity still that e-ryu’s don’t know the match up nearly as well.
If I was to give an e-ryu advice on it, I’d just suggest to be very liberal with your use of cr.mk. The range and hitbox/hurtbox on it allows it to stuff a surprisingly large amount of chun’s pokes, while its start up matches most of her best stuff (like st.mp) and you can tend to get more off it then chun can off any counter poke she might use. I feel like the match up has two parts, when chun doesn’t have ultra, which I feel is in e-ryu’s favor, and when chun does have ultra, which is in chun’s favor. The high recovery on a lot of e-ryu’s stuff makes Hosenka really good against him, and thus her ultra seems to be the great equaliser in this match up, other wise I think it would be in e-ryus favor. The more I’ve played it, the more its felt like its probably a 5/5 match up and I just hate it because I was getting bodied by every e-ryu I faced when I first picked up chun.
, not much.