If Daigo mained Akuma would he be the best player in the world once again?

The Japanese has the main advantage of having a geographical closeness, many top players are living in a close area, whereas the American scene has many top players spread out in a much larger geographical distance, so the closeness helps the Japanese of creating a stronger scene than the American scene. However even while the Japanese are stronger the Amercian players, the Japanese aren´t that godly, how Emil likes to tell all of us and I have seen plenty times, how Non-Japanese players have beaten the Japanese and something else, the major tournaments in the USA are also having some Japanese attendance, but why are they not winning the tournaments? Running a longer set isn´t the same like having 2 out of 3 sets with a double elimination system and certain characters are having stronger mains in the USA, for example Rufus, Balrog or Guile are having much better American players than Japanese.
The last tournaments were mostly won by Infiltration, Xian also won some tournaments.

A lot of them even got defeated by Non-Japanese players at Evo pools(Eita, Tokido for example), Kazunoko has defeated Infiltration at CC with 2-0, but was only Top 32 at Evo 2012, thanks to Jwong. The American team at SBO 2012 even won at the first round and Hsien Chang also played great there.
Infiltration is simply a smart player, he has not only some nice pocket characters, he also knows, how important is the player factor by using notes to defeat his opponents, he not only defeats the opponent´s character, he also defeats the opponent himself.

Edit: His Hakan is very mediocre, compared to Hakan specialists it is really mediocre, however his playing skills are simply great, he has great fundamentals and is in overall a great player, which makes him winning tournaments. Sadly he is not in the Topanga Asia league. He doesn´t win alone with Akuma, don´t forget his Gouken, Hakan and Ryu.

Well of course Xiao does well in street fighter, he’s a KoF legend… Street fighter 4 is easy mode compared to KoF… Xiao hai’s cannon spikes are on point… look at xian? If your amazing at Anti airing in KoF you will automatically be godlike at anti airng in sf4 after a little getting used to the game… ( in my opinion, so relax) here comes the dislikes… bring it.

Ps: I heard whenever daigo and Kazunoko mirror matched kazunoko won more sets… And he is the original red Yun!!!
Kazunoko> Daigo= Xian> other Yuns=]

I agree with this, especially the bolded parts. Evo is a very poor measuring stick for deciding who the best player is, for a number of reasons. That being said, winning Evo is a huge accomplishment (just like winning the NCAA tournament is, even though the NCAA tourney is about a shitty a way of deciding who the best team is), if nothing else for the stamina and mental strength it takes to survive the bracket. Being as there is no tournament out there dedicated to determining who the best player is, winning Evo is, by default, the biggest thing a player can hope to achieve in our sport.

http://challonge.com/SBO2012
This is the brackets of the SBO2012, you are saying that US players are doing mainly poor there, it could be, but there is a flaw. Out of 32 teams with 3 players, there have been 7 non Japanese teams and of these 7 teams, there was only 1 US team, with Latif, PR Rog and Dieminion, other top players like the Rufus gang weren´t there ,in the last 32 tournament. Of course the Japanese playerbase is stronger than the US scene, but it shouldn´t be surprising, why the US won´t win much at SBO, cause there is a huge numeral disadvantage for the US teams at SBO and also a disadvantage in terms of skill and usualness of the arcade machines.

Btw the top 8 of SBO 2012 consist of these characters:

[details=Spoiler]Fei Long x3
Akuma x2
Sagat x2
Yun x2
Adon
Cammy
C.Viper
Cody
Dudley
Evil Ryu
Guy
Hakan
Makoto
M.Bison(Dictator)
Rose
Rufus
Sakura
Yang
Zangief[/details]

So if every random can join Evo, what is so bad about this? Unexperienced players or new players can gather experience and level up at an offline environment. The FGC wants to grow, but you can´t grow with tournaments were unknown players are excluded, oh another thing, if Evo is filled with random players, then why for example did Eita or Tokido lost in the first round? Why did we had only 1 Japanese player in the top 8 of EVO 2012? If the average skill level of a tournament is low, shouldn´t it be something great for an international top player, because you might get an easy bracket and some “free” wins theoretically? Fuudo was beaten by two US players, Kazunoko aswell, do not forget this.

Japan isn’t necessarily number one, but most likely take 15 out of 20 spots from the top 20, at least. Emil’s argument is really simple: most top Japanese players can not come to EVO, so the overall level of the latter is - unfortunately - lower than the highest possible. There is no fighting game world cup or whatever, despite what major fighting game organizers claim.

Oh yeah, I’m very aware of the US being outnumbered in Japanese tournaments, just like the Japanese get outnumbered in American tournaments…that’s why I didn’t really use the results of one particular SBO tournament but I was referring to the history of how well US has done at SBO. My point in any case, wasn’t that the US is bad but that the competition at SBO is insanely strong, with every team being a killer. At a tournament like Evo, you have too many weak/average players littering the brackets, which reduces the average skill level of the tournament.

Oh, I agree it’s great for the scene, to have anyone that wants to compete, to enter…that’s not really my argument. I was referring to the integrity of the tournament as it pertains to “highest level of play” and what it means to win the tournament.

I am just curious, but who of the Japanese top guns wasn´t actually at EVO 2012? Last years Evo had a shitload of top players from Japan. By seeing Kazunoko´s name as an example, it is interesting to see, how some people claim that Infiltation isn´t one of the best, cause Kazunoko for example defeated him once or that he has to win large sets against the likes of Daigo, Tokido, Mago, Fuudo, Sako or whatever. They might win larger sets vs Infiltration, but who is more likely to win the tournaments?

Didn’t you know that one in three japanese randoms is a godlike Daigo-level monster.

You don’t have to win Evo to be the best player (if you attended). Also, failed to qualify what? There weren’t any Evo qualifiers in Japan, to my knowledge…and there should have been many.

The fact that it houses a large concentration of all the godly players, means it is still more relevant compared to a tournament like Evo, even though the fact that it’s not a singles tournament makes it somewhat ambiguous when it comes to deciding who the best player is. The majority of the top players in the world are absent from Evo, so there is no basis for Evo determining who the best player in the world is.

No, and again I already explained why. The bracket is very massive, to the point that even if we knew who the very best player in the entire Evo bracket was, it would be very risky to bet any money on it. It is also risky to bet on who the winner would be in a tournament like SBO or Godsgarden but not because of the giant bracket but because every player is grandmaster level. Why do you fail to understand this?

Already shot down like twice…not sure why you keep bringing this up.

I think you are forgetting that Americans outnumber the Japanese players on a factor of like 1:100, at a tournament like Evo. For the amount of Japanese players that are losing to Americans, probably about 3 times as many top Americans are losing to Japanese players.

What’s clearly not a myth is how uneducated you are about the international scene. Like I can probably list you about 20 well known top players that have never come to America or any tournament outside of Japan, and you wouldn’t know who they are or what character they play, except by youtubing their name.

Kawaguuchi, Younashi, Y., Vivi, Juso, KichijojiKen(this guy actually did come out to a tournament and I bet you don’t even know which one it was…but he is godly), Michael-tan(he also came out to a tourney, you probably don’t know which or who he is), dath, KojiKOG, Darui, YHC Mochi, etc

Edit: I hate to have to use the argument of authority but I think that’s the only thing that can get a flag waving american patriot like you to understand…

Interview with Dieminion:

**
CoolGrayAJ: Regarding international competition, Infiltration’s been winning everything, but do you think people should be more concerned about a single player, or an entire country?

Di3mini0n: Japan is still way past the American level of play. Being in Japan recently really woke me up to how behind we really are. On a daily basis, you’ll see Daigo playing against Kazunoko, Mago, Nemo, Nekojita, and countless other players that you will have never even heard of. If you think for a second that our challenge right now is Infiltration, Daigo or any other big name foreign player, you’re wrong. The real challenge is if and when the rest of these Japanese players come over to play.

Japan is no stranger to taking over EVO Top 8, and people need to be aware of this. Just because Daigo was the only Japanese player in EVO Top 8 last year, you need to pay attention to what happened to the rest of the Japanese players. Kindevu, Haitani, Fuudo and Dogura all placed 9th, so if you really think about it, we were four matches away from having 5 Japanese players place Top 8 at last year’s EVO.

I don’t want to sound like a defeatist, but really ask yourself, do you play 6-8 hours a day against the best players of your country?**

You just don’t know…and I haven’t even been to Japan, but I’ve sat down to watch almost every Japanese tournament in existence. Dieminion has actually been there and seen/played all sorts of random players that you will likely never see attend Evo, so I’m pretty sure he knows what he is talking about.

And really, all this arguing just for me to finally get this basic point across - there are TONS of master players out there, especially in Japan, that will never come to Evo…so saying Infiltration is the best because he won Evo and some other tournaments that lacked a lot of strong competition, and not even knowing/watching who these othersplayers are that don’t come, makes your statement pretty retarded.

This is kind of bullshit. Last year in Evo we had:

Daigo, Fuudo, Uryo, Haitani, Gamerbee, XiaoHai, Poongko, Kindevu, Dogura, Sako, Momochi and Kazunoko.

That’s a lot of top-level asians if you ask me.

SF25, Evo and GG have been the tournaments with the highest current showcase of skill. Note that for Evo, I only refer to the latter rounds (top 32, top 16, etc).

I think what Emil is getting at is that Infiltration hasn’t gotten the opportunity to play an INCREDIBLE number of Japanese people (I mean in the 50s-100s). I mean sure, he did 6-0 Daigo and beat down many other Japanese players, but there’s still quite a few high level players that he hasn’t fought against. This especially applies to the players who main characters whose matchups are great against Akuma (Cammy, Yun, etc).

To be honest, I think Xiao Hai / Kazunoko / ACQUA could give Infiltration for a run of his money in a long set. Even if the Cammy/Yun vs Akuma matchup is 6-4 in Cammy/Yun’s favor, I’d think that they’d rip Infiltration even if he does counterpick.

My conclusion: I have to say that Infiltration is currently the best on the basis of all the achievements he has. However, that doesn’t encompass the entire world and the possibilities he has against other top players.
I’m frankly a bit mad that they couldn’t just extend the Topanga Cup and invite a few players. By adding Haitani, Kazunoko and Infiltration, they would have made it the most ideal tournament to determine who really is the best in the world.

Just a question, but if Kazunoko, Bonchan or whatever are better than Infiltration, then why aren´t they winning EVO, despite EVO being a tournament with a weak skill level and a lot of free players.

I know some of these guys like Michael Tan or KojiKog, Michael Tan is known for having a win rate with 87% with Ken and also winning a lot with other chars like Sagat or Ryu. This is the one side of Michael Tan.

This is the other side of Michael Tan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oiTGsKnbg0

His local competition isn´t really high, that´s why he has this win rate.

Everyone in Japan is Daigo, that’s why he drops so many matches at kumites.

Congrats on simplifying the tournament process to make it suit your argument! Don’t for one second consider the ratio of japanese players to american/rest of world or the variance associated with a best of 3 tournament. C’mon man…
I agree with Emil for the most part. The simple answer to this thread is no. I don’t think there is a “best player” ever. There are numerous top level players who could contend for that spot. It’s amazing how quick people overlook guys like Fuudo who performed the “triple crown” of evo, godsgarden and topanaga . While Infiltration is absolutely the player to beat at the moment and has racked up an incredible amount of tournament wins, they have mostly been in tournaments of a lower average standard than the three Fuudo took down and really people should be wary of throwing around the title of " best player".

@ Shinakuma
what’s the weather like all the way up there on your high throne?

Well I really can’t see how 25th Anniversary falls into this category, because it only had 1 qualifier in Japan and 3 in the US. The other Japanese players (and very few) managed to get theirs by traveling and ironically, winning a different country’s qualifier (like Brazil, UK, etc). There is no valid reason why US should have had 3 qualifiers and Japan 1…and not to mention, Japan getting 0 qualifiers for HD Remix.

As for Xiaohai, I believe in this guy…and there’s videos floating around of him in Acho arcade recently and being fairly dominant…not against the best players in Japan but the players he was fighting were quite strong. One of the top Cammys right now, alongside Y. and Banbaban.

And yes I’m also disappointed they picked Poongko over Infiltration for Topanga…I want to know why.

Well Daigo got 5th, Gamerbee got 2nd, Poongko got 7th(?), Xiaohai got 4th and Fuudo/Haitani/Kindevu/Dogura got 9th…a number of these guys and the others you mentioned, lost to other Japanese players, either in winners or losers. Overall this is a very strong showing.

You would suppose that only the absolute best with a chance of winning would make the trip. It is a strong showing but not a dominant one.

It isn´t Infiltration´s fault, that…
-Fuudo gets eliminated by Dieminion
-Kazunoko gets eliminated by JWong
-Haitani gets eliminated by Xiaohai
-Kindevu gets eliminated by Poongko
-Dogura gets eliminated by Gamerbee
-Sako gets eliminated by Fuudo 1.
-Uryo gets eliminated by Mike Ross
-MOV gets eliminated by Jwong
-Tokido gets eliminated by Mago 2.
-Eita gets eliminated by Afrocole
-Mago gets eliminated by Uryo 3.

Infiltration, Daigo, Gamerbee and the rest of the top 8 were simply at their best form and were able to show the needed performance, that´s why they got into the top 8.
Are players like PR Rog, Gamerbee noobs, because they ain´t no Japanese?

This list also shows that some of the Japanese gods were not eliminated by their fellow Japanese gods(don´t know the rest). I am not denying the Japanese their ability, however it is not the same thing, if you are on the one hand sitting in a Kyushu arcade , grind through the casual players, get a shitload of points and get a win rate of 87%, then decide to go to a bit more international tournament, get dominated and destroyed. Or on the other hand, study matchups and opponents, learn different characters, sitting in front of dozen people, get the own matches streamed, wait a long time for matches and then dominate and destroy everyone during 2-3 days, additionaly win a lot of money and even a damn car.

The Daigo-Gamerbee set (to get to top8 in winners) felt more than a bit fradulent tho. Gamerbee outplayed Daigo for most of the set but yay ultra.

I’m not really sure how you are making this connection and what you’re concluding from this video. First of all, do you know who is KOK? He is another Japanese player. I have a feeling that you think he’s some random local Australian player who beat Michael-tan first round. KOK is actually an OG CVS2 god from Japan.

I mentioned Michael-tan as a godly player not because of his win rate with Ken (I didn’t actually know it was 87%) but because of what he has displayed in terms of skill, in his matches…and winning in a lot of tournaments, including diong very well at SBO.

Lets add to this…

Momochi got beat by MOV
Kyabetsu got beat by Xiaohai
Bonchan got beat by Humanbomb(I think this was a fluke but whatever)
Bonchan got eliminated by Haitani
Momochi got eliminated by Kyabetsu
Kyabetsu got eliminated by Kindevu
Kindevu got eliminated by Poongko

Btw this was Infiltration’s bracket at Evo:

Fnex Bahn, Af forwardstepkick, DRS MCZ Chris, Neil Goel, TFA RZR German Luger, 801 Strider, Snafoo, IPeru, Dieminion, Daigo, PR Rog, Gamerbee