a couple of our 3s players have gone over and done well in the Dan leagues. which requires consistency against great competition. I don’t know what else you would want.
are the best Americans on the same level as Nuki, Yakkun, etc? no, but they appear to be still be pretty good. and most of the Japanese are not on those people’s levels either.
that’s for 3s of course. I don’t think any other game has as big a gap between Japan and the rest of the world as 3s. for SSF4 I suspect the gap is smaller.
For 3S Japan never stopped playing. It’s gotten to the point where top players who used to play it in Japan are getting squashed when they go back to it.
You need to be more clear on what “same level” you’re referring to here means.
Because that’s incredibly ambiguous and no one can accurately ascertain or disprove this statement without a further understanding of what you’re trying to imply.
He is saying “in game play terms they are just as good but these japanese players are simply the next step in evolution so they are not on the same level because americans (and europeans) are a sub species now of the more highly evolved Homo Japaian.”
What about all of the non-americans who disagree with him? Or the fact that there is little to take offense to since most of the people here agree that outside of around 12 people everyone else is not on the top japanese players level. Considering that USA makes up 60% of all SF players, having only 12 people who are at the caliber of the top players in Japan whom number more than 20 but have a player base about 15% the size of the US’s player base is actually a little sad for the US.
No one here is among those 12 players who are on par with the best japanese players so what is there to take offense to? None of us are on that level, we aren’t being insulted, and many of those 12 people are actively disliked on this board by many members (ChrisG and Ricky Ortiz especially draw a lot of ire.)
It’s funny that Infiltration doesn’t have a thriving arcade scene in korea, yet he is one of the top players in the world. It is completely possible to level up by oneself but it requires more personal commitment. Obviously the japanese have a little advantage with the proximity of their top players but that can’t be used as an excuse for there being less top american player,s of which whom are at a slightly lower standard than the top japanese players. It’s a lazy man’s excuse. If you have a problem , you find a solution, case in point , Infiltration.
Americans judge everything off of their tournaments. It’s no secret that americo-centricism is quite prevalent. Wake up and realise that tournaments are just an average reflection of skill. You really think your top players would handle the top 10-20 japanese in long sets? You’ve got to be shitting yourselves. Xian, gamerbee and poongko are all top players that have done well in us tournaments. They got spanked in the topanga asia league. Before anyone goes on a rampage about me being anti-american. I am not at all. I’ve been to america and loved it. Great places and great friendly people. I am just laying down the truth.
Are the top US guys that far behind ? No, very little.
Can the top american players hang in tournaments with the top japanese? Of course they can.
In a league format with long sets versus multiple grand master level characters, would their deficiencies begin to get exposed? Yes, absolutely.
I’d hardly call 2-5 “spanked” and Xian’s game differential was only -1 which is pretty good all things considered. That means he only lost 1 game more than he won. His GD actually was better than Bonchan’s who was at -11 but went 3-4 instead of 2-5
Actually the ONLY japanese player who gave xian noticeable trouble was Fuudo who beat him 7-2. Every other matchup was damn close.
Xian vs Daigo = 10-12
Xian vs Sako = 7-9
Xian vs Bonchan = 7-0
Xian vs Poongko = 7-2
Xian vs Xiao Hai = 10-12
Xian vs Gamebee = 5-7
Every single match other than Fuudo that xian lost went into deuce. I’d hardly call that a “spanking”
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, doesn’t mean you have to accept it though. I question their opinion too. Case in point: topanga asia league. It’s a great display of that small difference in skill. Poongko , Xian and gamerbee are all on the same level ( definitely xian and gamerbee, poongko not quite as solid imo) or a tiny bit ahead of the top us players . They were exposed in the league format which is pretty clear to see. If it was a tournament ( best of 3 ) you couldn’t really draw that conclusion. Seeing gamerbee lose 7-0 to sako and, Xian 7-2 to fuudo pretty much confirms what I’ve been saying.
On a slightly unrelated note, Xiao Hai lost to Daigo 7-4 in the topanga asia league ,while in EVO he eliminated the beast 2-0. I know he is not a us player but nonetheless it provides more evidence for the weighted significance of league results versus tournament results.
No it doesn’t because Xian beat Bonchan 7-0 and Daigo and Sako both went into deuce before a winner was decided. Losing to one player doesn’t negate the other matches.
I just want to point out that Xian (SG) isn’t even American and is not a good judge of the skill differential between JP and US (if there is one). For that matter, neither are Poongko (KR) or Gamerbee (TW) or Xiao Hai (CH).
Saying that they are “roughly in the same league” as American players doesn’t even make any sense, because the same format you’re talking about (long continuous sets) between them and American players doesn’t exist either, just like it doesn’t exist between American players and Japanese players.
I don’t disagree that a long set format is more indicative of /overall/ ability to /play/ the game, but I think tournament results paint an important picture as well.
Some people don’t necessarily have the mental strength to go into a Bo3 set in front of a large audience and consistently perform well even if they might be the stronger technical or mechanical players that would be fine to play long sets in more comfortable environments.
Does that make them the “better” player if their skill can never translate to a tournament format?
Congratulations on being very selective with your argument. You failed to point out that Bonchan played akuma versus Xian which was a big mistake. Would have been a lot closer if he stuck with sagat. I can’t understand why he did but obviously he had his reasons . Xian held his own with a solid GD I agree, but at the end of the day he lost in longer sets.
Why haven’t you mentioned Gamerbee or Poongko, -17 and -16 GD respectively?
I know why - because you enjoy selective examples that suit your argument
It’s useless arguing with the likes of you eternal. You have something to say on everything and no amount of meaningful evidence is likely to change your opinion.
Leagues provide us with a much better perspective on things than tournaments and topanga asia league did not disappoint in that regard.
If say it went Xian 7-5 Bonchan (sagat), the GD would be more accurate. At the end of the day this “slight difference” I refer to between the top US and the top Japanese boils down to a handful of games over long sets. No one is insinuating that they would be beaten badly. All I’m saying is that if you increased the amount of games between them it would become increasingly evident who is a stronger overall player.
But your premise for extrapolation is also inconsistent, because long sets don’t exist between American players and Xian, Poongko, Gamerbee or Xiao Hai.
Tournament results are also inconclusive of these assumptions.
I mean, I think it’s widely accepted that Xian is a very solid player, but he also had the most respectable showing in Topanga as well from non-JP players.
You can argue that Poongko and Gamerbee aren’t even at the same level as American players since they’ve consistently been eliminated from tournaments by American players, just as easily as you can argue that they’re at “the same” level because many of their showings have been competitive.
Well in the context of these hypothetical arguments, it does make sense, complete sense. They all have done well in what the US considers the " world championship" of gaming…i.e EVO. Not Xian( not completely sure of his EVO performance) though but he has done very well in recent tournaments, usually being the only threat to Infiltration. It’s a pretty fair estimation of his strength relative to US players in this regard. Not a HUGE assessment but in this context of limited information then it is reasonably acceptable.
I completely agree with your last point. Case in point : sako. Probably the best player in the world imo but in tournaments doesn’t show it. It’s just another facet of the competitive nature of the game to master but not quite as true a testament to skill as just literal gameplay quality.
I take note that neither of you have responded to the Infiltration/ no arcade scene/ possibly the best player ( or one of ) in most peoples eyes versus the american typical response " oh we don’t have a sufficient arcade scene so meh…" . Excuses. Top competitors find ways around their problems and come out stronger for it.
I didn’t respond to this because I didn’t make those excuses because I don’t think they’re necessary.
My stance is really that there are a handful of very very competitive American players who may or may not be behind players from differing regions (inclusive of Japan) and there are pretty strong consistent tournament results to support that stance.
Now, does that mean I believe that JWong or PR Rog or Latif can go an extended set against some of the top JP players in the world and come out on top? I don’t know, I don’t know if they’ll have their deficiencies exploited like you’re suggesting because we’ve really never seen this or anything to corroborate it.
It’s certainly possible, but it seems unfair to make that our default stance when there isn’t really any supporting evidence.
I think Infiltration’s done pretty well for himself in the absence of a strong arcade scene in Korea, but I think that’s the same for most American players who have consistently placed well at majors…