It’s not just Japanese players…it’s any player. If player A beats B, it doesn’t mean A is better than B. A pretty elementary concept. Because otherwise, we would have Wong > Kazunoko (because Wong beat him) but Kazunoko > Infiltration (because Kazunoko beat him) but Infiltration > Wong (because Infiltration beat him) and Daigo roughly = Kazunoko (because Daigo has beaten Kazunoko roughly equal times), which means Daigo > Infiltration (even though Infiltration has beaten Daigo?) and Wong > Daigo (because apparently Wong > Kazunoko).
Wins and losses alone doesn’t dictate who is the better player.
Didn’t only 1 Japanese player go to 2009? I don’t think Tokido was there.
This is an argument I was actually making myself, to show that Evo is not the highest level tournament…but people laughed at it (lol), even though it’s totally true.
So ChrisG is suddenly on par because he won a set against Momochi (and Wong)? I mean I like where ChrisG is going with AE, he is playing the game properly and his win wasn’t a fluke (he didn’t random out Momochi) but it’s quite a stretch to say he has suddenly mastered AE after people were just previously saying that ChrisG’s AE was improving but has ways to go.
The players you mentioned are probably on par with Japan’s “good” players…players like say, Hanamuraki, Nyanishi, maybe SHIN(he is probably a level higher), maybe Shungoku Neurosis but they aren’t Tokido, Momochi, URyo, Sako, Haitani, Fuudo, Ojisanboy, YHC Mochi level.
I’m not saying they aren’t strong. In fact, I think the US is surprisingly strong in AE compared to other fighting games…they are easily one of the top countries. But they aren’t the top country and their best players aren’t on par with the best of the top country, Japan.
More like hundreds of Japanese player. In a 50v50, I’d only be able to list 10 American players before I run out of possible contenders…where are you getting these players that can stand up to players like Michael-tan, URyo, Dogura, Momochi, Sako, etc?
Well no shit it doesn’t work like that, and that isn’t what I was suggesting either. But to suggest players that win against another player aren’t even on the same level is disingenuous.
EVO Is the highest skill once you get out of the pools the tournament is the highest collection of the highest caliber of players in the world. The point is you can’t go “500 this 500 that” because that is talking about the pools which is basically a bunch of mini tournaments on their own.
Evo 2009 had 2 japanese players in top 8 (Daigo and Dan) and that hardly means they were the only 2 to go to EVO. (Actually I can prove that there was at least one other who WENT because Wuku was in top 8 for Guilty Gear.)
Evo 2010 Tokido was at EVO but didn’t make it to top 8 in SF4 (he was top 8 in HDR though)
As for the list of your top players (Tokido, Momochi, Uryo, Sako, Haitani, Fuudo, Ojisanboy, YHC Mochi.) other than Ojisanboy and YHC Mochi I could probably find MULTIPLE best of 3 videos with a top US player beating them. Especially Tokido and Momochi who pretty regularly come to west coast tournaments and stay with Justin Wong or PR Rog depending on if it’s norcal or socal.
Technically a ton of people in top 32 of Evo would NOT belong at SBO under any circumstance. SBO has the absolute highest average level of play for a top 32 bracket, because each slot is earned with a qualifier that has insane level of competition.
Momochi was pretty much unstoppable until that one tournament (was it CEO? I forget) where Wong blew him up. Not really sure what happened there but that was really the only time I remember him losing in the US, aside from ChrisG at NCR(and I guess Poongko at Shadowloo Showdown, if you count that, and Gamerbee in the US). Momochi has been an overwhelmingly dominant force in the US.
Tokido has an overwhelming amount of victories over American top players, compared to them having victories over him…and even then there’s no point to even argue this, Tokido competes very often in the US and places high or usually wins whatever he enters. It would be silly to use Tokido as an example of Americans beating Japanese players.
When I say top, I mean like master or grandmaster level. Wong is not a grandmaster level player, I don’t think anyone in the US is.
Anyway it’s pointless to argue with you about this if you have no history on the international (particularly Japanese) fighting game scene. To most people, it’s just random names of players they never heard of because they only watch American streams and think those names are irrelevant because they can’t spend $2000 to fly over to the US. I’m sure very few people know who is AC Revenger, for instance…or remember the epic Chiba vs. Saitama 17on17 with Ojisanboy’s comeback for Chiba, among other historical events and legendary players in Japan(that are still playing to this day).
Edit: Speaking of results…I love how people love to use the 25th Anniversary Tournament for arguments about how good Infiltration was to beat the Japanese. Ok…but lets look at the American side. I believe it was something like, 6 out of 7 of the American players got bottom 8 in the 16 man bracket, and only one player got above (and that was Snakeyez). Compare this with all 5 Japanese players, getting in the top 8 of the bracket. I think it was even Dieminion that commented afterwards saying it was not a good look for the US (paraphrased).
This argument is endless and pointless. If a person is stubbornly set to their opinion with no possibility of change, regardless of whatever reasoning and evidence is presented, then continuing to persist is merely a waste of precious time.
Seriously this shit is pointless. Unless someone buys an island somewhere and all the top players in the world fly there and just train hyperbolic time chamber style we’ll never really know who the “best” is anyway, at least not as definitively as some folks seem to want.
“JAPAN IS DA BES”
“Uh, have you consid-” “JAPAN IS DA BEST U GAIJIN LOOK THEY SO SUPER”
“Uh, that’s why they win absolutely everything right?”
“RESULTS DONT MATTER THEY ARE THE FIGHTING GAME MASTER RACE SHUT UP ALREADY I AM RIGHT YOU’RE JUST BLIND”
Perhaps their mentality towards gaming should be transferred to sports, cause last time I checked they got fucked in the butt at the 2012 Summer Olympics they didn’t even finish top ten. Whereas America came out on top, call me an american patriot all you want i’m not even american.
don’t all the American top players think America is free to Japan except a small handful of players? haven’t we been bad compared to them since 3s in every game that we’ve both played? this doesn’t seem like a big deal or something that requires a ton of argument.
Yes, the argument is that the small handful of players are equal to the best in Japan even if the REST of the US is free to japan. Emil’s argument is ‘nope, no one in america is as good as Tokido/Momochi/Uryo/Random dude off the street that might be japanese or chinese or just has black hair and squints a lot… might be Gilbert Gottfried actually…’
Everyone here is saying that US has a handful of top players about on Japan’s top players’ level (give or take a Sako or two). But Emil’s suggesting nippon randoms are godlike and people like wong and pr rog and such are nowhere close. It’s also confirmed there is an unknown Japanese random at a run-down arcade in Seppuku who’s better than Infiltration but for some reason no one knows about him and he doesn’t travel and stuff.
Or: There is reality which people agree on, and then there’s Emil’s fanboyism.
ah that’s weird. there’s definitely a few American players who can hold their own. the results show that too.
even in 3s, the game where we’ve had the most famous big gap, there are a small handful of players who can hang. we’ve seen Pyrolee and 5 star play well against MOV, and Ryan has done really well in the Dan battles.
as a 3s mainer I’m all for “Japan is awesome and we suck” but let’s not go overboard.
The players I’m talking about aren’t randoms…they’re randoms to you maybe because you don’t hear about them or see them in an American stream. Someone like AC Revenger, for instance, is far from random.
Hanging isn’t the same as being on the same level…yeah they are a number of players that can hold their own and make the match competitive and perhaps win some games, but it doesn’t put them on the level.
To answer the original poster. No, it wouldn’t matter if Daigo mained Akuma, he played him well but the numerous times out victories he got with Akuma and constant zoning with Akuma tells us he was using the wrong character.
Personally from my experience of playing Momochi, Snake Eyez, and Latif I’ve felt the most overmatched playing Latif. Latif also did very well in Japan. I don’t really know how big the skill difference is.
Also if you follow the jp scene I would hope most people know who AC Revenger is.
