I thought I’d make this thread just to see if anyone has ideas for systems / content that should be available in fighting games for the future. The main idea is that you recognize a problem in FGs/FGCs in general and try to figure out some way to resolve it. Not that at any given point we can suddenly make demands for what game companies will make for us, but this information could be useful to an indie developer who is trying to make a good fighting game.
I saw this post on a thread in dustloop (see below)
tldr version:
The game detects when you’ve done a mixup/oki and rewards you for doing so
Scrubs can pick simplified controls, people who are better can pick expert controls. There are differences for each one, but the game still rewards you for doing advanced things. Kind of like Grooves in CVS2
iPhone/Smartphone compatibility/linking to get information
RPG elements?
Online 2P training / Mentorship system " where if you teach somoene online and their online record gets better, or they start using more mixups/okizeme that the game detects, you also get rewards." Obviously we need amazing netcode for this.
The most important thing is having a good TUTORIAL which covers all the basics as well as advanced stuff. Doesn’t matter how good the game is - if it can’t be communicated to everyone intuitively, coherently and In full, then it’s useless. And no, fighting games don’t require RPG elements (other than for cosmetics). All characters and moves should be available from the start in order to avoid unfair play.
RPG elements - gaining new moves, more HP, leveling up, etc. - in a fighting game sound like a really bad idea. Also, how would a game like this be run at a tournament? Would all the participants be required to have online profiles?
EDIT: Decided to write a longer post.
First thing is, current games already reward you for mixups/oki by letting you perform a combo afterwards - I’m not sure how much more rewarding it can get. I also think having different control schemes is also a bad idea - all of the competitive players will use the most-rewarding control scheme, and even the non-competitive players will make an attempt at learning the advanced control scheme. I think the idea of having in-game info is a good idea in theory, but I’m failing to see how that info could keep up with an evolving metagame unless the developers were able to quickly update the in-game info - something which is currently not possible, at least on consoles.
I like the idea of non-combo trials, though. Something like that would be really useful in a lot of fighting games.
Overall, I think there are some good ideas in OP’s post, but the RPG elements need to be taken out if they affect competitive play (which I couldn’t tell reading the post).
An RPG style campaign mode sounds pretty awesome to me. Not a pure RPG, but something more like Soul Calibur 2, where you could unlock weapons and characters.
And rollback netcode all around. Devs should focus on the online as much as they focus on everything else. I want to see a smooth online experience, complete with lobbies, voice chat, and spectating. I know these things are obvious, but SG on PC doesn’t have chat, and KOFXIII doesn’t have lobbies or GGPP-style netcode.
I also would love to see more KI-type payment systems. I know people get scared when they hear about f2p games, and there is the potential for abuse, but there is also the potential to draw way more people into the game.
But if the F2P thing doesn’t get adopted, I’d like to see franchises maintained through DLC. That means consistent updates to keep the user base interested, and dlc released instead of full releases. In my eyes, releasing the same game again with balance tweaks and a few new characters for the full retail price is bad for the community for a number of reasons.
If I could only pick one thing, it would be that the networking should be focused on much more.
Cosigning any calls for better tutorials. Skullgirls has kinda shown a little of the way here but there’s no reason it couldn’t go further. Obviously no dev is going to be able to precisely predict what ultimately becomes the best tech but there are things that are always going to be useful and are rarely fleshed out inside games’ own practice systems.
Good netcode is vital. Pretty sure paying close attention to community feedback on gameplay is vital too. If people think you really give a damn about the progress of your product, they’ll probably respect you for it and stick around for the longer term.
I’d like to see some more character designs that go outside the usual anime/martial arts tropes too.
Don’t like the idea of noob modes, better to have intelligent and friendly training provision.
Minor thing, but I wish they would add an option in versus that would allow the game itself to keep track of score in long sets. And, while they’re at it, might as well add in options for the usual rules for such sets (i.e. only the loser can change characters, etc.).
I think you’re misinterpreting the difference between a 1P training mode/story and 2P.
2P stays classic, with the three different levels of control.
The RPG elements stay for 1P games. The theory is that the reason why people lose interest in fighting games is because they aren’t rewarded enough for doing things in game. Beating the game used to unlock characters, but now that all characters are available from the start with any fighting game, we get colors and movies and stickers and stuff most people don’t care about. The RPG elements implementation affects a 1P mode, NOT 2P mode. The 1P mode is supposed to guide the player into learning strategies for multiplayer. I’m not sure if that was clear.
No. Mashing buttons also rewards in getting damage. You want to teach people the “right” ways to get damage. Sustainable ways to play. People become more interested in a game the more they learn/can apply things they’ve learned and reap more rewards. I think the way of thinking of people like you / those kinds of comments (no offense) is very old school because fighting games have been very single serving for so long (specifically geared towards 2P play, without using 1P play to teach the player more about the game)
Agreed completely. Connecting players should be second nature. When you’re not battling people online, you could be in a 2P training room, spectating, or chatrooming or whatever. Think about how much knowledge new players could get just from hearing two players talk in a lobby about stuff, or even while the game is happening (though I’m not sure how that specifically would work).
Agreed here.
I think the implementation I was thinking of would be one where the “noob” mode only becomes rewarding when they start using more advanced techniques and things. It could also inspire players/ they become jealous of other players who have access to flashier shit / more options and make them hungry to learn stuff. Obviously at any point someone could still be dumb and just pick the “Expert controls” to see the cool supers or whatever but the hope is that new players will improve by actually being rewarded (besides damage) for doing things.
You have to remember (this is also at d3v) that when you don’t have online play, you’re playing the CPU. Good AI is pretty important (not that shitty, I just pick a move with faster frames than you right when I detect you’ve pressed a button AI) at least because when players don’t have local meetups or don’t want to go online because they’re intimidated, they should still be able to learn the game from INSIDE the game.
The problems I’m trying to address I guess is the whole old school attitude of “your reward for learning the game is winning,” because in an age where competition and the influx of new fighters is high, we want to build on this momentum and implement systems that teach the players the game in a healthy way. You obviously need the beat downs from other players, but you need someone to tell you what you’re doing wrong - and that person isn’t always available.
There are no youtube tutorials to tell you what you’re doing “wrong,” or what didn’t work - which is why the game itself should adopt a system that can detect players’ actions while they are playing 1P and give them feedback. I know that when I was learning 3s I really wanted replays because I really couldn’t spot my habits unless someone pointed them out or unless I saw them myself / someone kept beating me at them. This could be implemented faster by the game storing the information of your habits and tendencies and literally telling you in some sort of menu (aka the RPG elements) that this is what you’re doing, etc.
Imagine if there was a stat in SF4 that told you the percentage of times your ultra hit vs. the amount of times you threw it out, how many times it got blocked, etc. It would definitely encourage some people to at the very least not throw out random ultras like new players love to do. Provided they already have interest. Its similar to COD k/d ratio or shots fired / shots missed ratio or whatever. Why aren’t there more stats tracked in FGs?
I love new players as much as the next guy, and I have done my bit to help new players get into games before, but I’d still rather we don’t have to gimp games with things like ‘- The game detects when you’ve done a mixup/oki and rewards you for doing so’ (what does that even mean?). There’s players to teach you the game, more games now have tutorials to teach you how to play, the actual versus mode shouldn’t be teaching you how to play. RTS games don’t detect when you’ve done solid micro and reward you for it, your reward is the benefits that solid micro reaps. Same with skills in every other genre. Accuracy in shooting games, last hitting in dota…the reward for learning a skill is the benefits the skill gives you, there doesn’t need to be arbitrary things attached to it.
Good tutorials, a nicely done single player campaign, really fucking good netcode, challenges for casuals and bored people and deep mechanics is all a great fighting game needs.
Basically mix the single player/challenges of Injustice/MK9 with the mechanics of SF4 and get Skullgirls netcode and you have an almost perfect game.
Almost cause SF4 is imo the best fighter, atm but it’s far from perfect.
Game would be 10x more fun without crouch teching and 1-frame links, imo.
I have two issues with this:
[list]
[]How does the game determine between a “legit” mixup and button-mashing?
[]Have you seen how many high-level players mash? Haitani’s run to top 8 at this past Evo wouldn’t have happened if he hadn’t mashed out ultra 1. Daigo will also execute a DP during hard parts of his opponent’s combos, and many times, it pays off. Mashing - at least if you consider it pressing buttons while in hitstun - is not necessarily a bad thing.
[/list]
I have some issues with this, too:
[list]
[]I doubt even people picking up a fighting game for the first time are doing it to run through the story/single-player mode - the reason they’re getting it is to play online or with friends.
[]I think it’s a sweeping generalization to say “most people” don’t care about colors and costumes and other aesthetic stuff like that.
[*]AI in fighting games still has a very long way to go before it becomes anything human-like. There’s a reason people tell new players to not play the AI in fighting games - it’ll only make you worse against human opponents.
[/list]
Stats simply can’t tell you things replays can. You could have a huge number of whiffed fireballs, and depending upon the game and the character, that might not be a bad thing. You might even have a whiffed/blocked super, and again, that may or may not be a bad thing. It would be better to instill the mindset of “watch where you get hit, figure out why you get hit, and then don’t do that anymore” from the get-go, which no fighting games currently do, at least to my knowledge. While it would certainly be nice to have some more stats tracked, I wouldn’t favor them over replays, or give them equal importance/influence.
What are you basing that on? The gameplay? What makes you assume a fighter can’t be played for it’s single player mode? It’s a bit hypocritical to say such a thing, and then in the very next point, discredit a point for it being a “sweeping generalization”, wouldn’t you agree?
Again, you’re assuming no one wants to play a single player fighter. And you’re also assuming that anyone who does play a single player fighter is destroying their chances for playing against people. By this logic, we have to assume that the top players in any fighting game have never played the story or arcade modes. I don’t know if that’s the case, but it’s hard to imagine.
And the fact that fighters have a storyline, and many fans tend to follow the storyline, is proof that a single player mode is important to people in a fighter.