Advanced things that use the game engine in odd ways, like option selects, aren’t even a factor at the “casual player” level unless their opponent is using them. In which case it’s a casual player squaring off against someone who isn’t, which isn’t a problem with the game itself. Any competition degrades when you have two players or teams of vastly different skill or mindset. A pro baseball team against a weekly community league, a chess grandmaster against someone who’s never even heard of chess tournaments, etc. That’s no different than someone who plays SF4 at tournaments playing against someone who just kinda plays it every now and then.
I come from years of playing Ghost Recon and Rainbow Six so this is new to me as well, and what appealed to me the most about SF was the learning curve. I love it. I didn’t get to play many video games as a kid, but when i picked up SF4 for the first time i felt like one. I was excited to learn the combos and figure which character i liked best (chose Gen). Fighting games like SF are difficult not only due to the amount of information one must absorb to become proficient but also because button mashing will not get you far against someone who even remotely knows what they are doing. Its good that way though. It makes you work harder. One thing i will say, which that video posted on the earlier page also pointed out, is SF and other fighting games lack tutorials. BUT, that is not a major problem for two reasons.
- The community is vibrant and welcoming (in my experience at least)
- Everyone is constantly disseminating information helpful to both pros and casual players
Also, it would not be as engaging learning links and combos from a computer. It feels more accomplishing hunting down the information yourself. (Excuse any misused terms :/)
The community is vibrant and welcoming? Online, or here in SRK? Online play is not welcoming. In flesh and blood the community seems great. You might make some net friends here on this site. Get a screen and miles of wire between people for an online match and all of a sudden people are threatening to come to your house to kill your mother…
I would also contend that the casual player would probably not even know SRK or Eventhubs existed until they wanted to become more than a casual player. Chances are great that the sheer volume of information/threads/personalities would be intimidating, at the very least, to a casual player.
SF4 isn’t and shouldn’t be for casual players. You have to love this shit. You have to love it so much you can’t help but think about how to improve while you’re laying your head down to go to sleep, wake up wondering how much time if any you’ll get to use for SF4, because otherwise all the judgmental crap that comes with the game and the peripheral experience on sites like these is just not worth it.
I dont get this. I always hear people complaining about needing 1 framers to be competitive. There are VERY few chars that require one framers to be at least a mid level online player. Rufus and Vega are the only ones that immediately spring to mind.
Almost every char can sacrifice 10-50 damage and avoid one frame links and still have bnbs.
Its much more important to learn how to play the neutral game than trying to optimize every bnb when your footsies are meh.
I fall into this category myself as my execution is far better than my fundamentals. Being able to rattle off 1 framers is useless if you cant land the hit and if they cant land the hit, you dont need to do optimized combos.
I will concede that the number of match-ups is obnoxious. Do you really need 44 characters? But thats what people want. KI gets bashed for their low roster size, people want even more chars added to SF4 for some reason 
But real talk what 1v1 game/sport/activity doesn’t require hundreds of hours to play at a mid level if your a complete beginner.
Every single one does.
The difference is when you play team games you can get carried by other players and have a sense of “I was part of that win” while being able to say "fuck my team for making me lose"
RPG’s have the grinding element so no matter what time = visible progress regardless of skill.
1v1 games are much more frustrating to lose in and expose weakness in play much quicker especially when there is no rpg element.
Yea, i met on SRK, not online. Being able to come someone and ask questions without getting all the ego and bullshit is a big deal to me, at least regarding learning the mechanics of a game like SF. I found out about SRK while looking for a fightstick so i suppose you’re right about someone needing to search out this type of forum.
On another note, I think it is foolish to complain about the difficulty of a game, regardless of how hard it is or what game it is. Why? Because the developers made it so, not by accident, but purposefully and therefore it is up to you to decide whether it is something you can handle, are interested in, or willing to invest in. There is NOTHING wrong with saying it is too much for you. I tried to get a friend of mine into SF so we could spar together and he said it looks like too much work. Perfectly fine. You have to have at least some semblance of desire to learn this stuff and there’s no reason to force it. But that desire is important because like you said Climaxter, you have to love it.
I came to fighters recently, after playing mostly Sonic Generations and Sonic Racing Transformed mostly, also Nights into Dreams and Space Channel 5. I’m pretty sure I like casual games, and from my perspective, the game is fine. It could even be harder as I’ve noticed that the AI walks into obvious crouch kicks.
I think what makes the game hard is people open themselves up to attack, l2block first. The AI basically ragequits once u do proper blocking. I got this game cause Juri looked awesome, first Street Fighter I ever played and I like it, I main Juri cause she looks awesome.
The AI can’t ever take the place of a human being’s unpredictability.
this is the most important factor
Capcom for marketing reasons made SF4 look beginner friendly in 2008. Just like it happened with MK 9.
but back then there were fewer characters and there was less gaming info.
but few years later game became even more complex and challenging. unfortunately Capcom still use the same marketing. As if SF4 were as easy and accessible as Biohazard or Devil May Cry.
Buyers dont read experienced players advice but rely on marketing gimmicks of video game sites and journals, who promote the game that way.
whereas a game like Faster than Light, is promoted as being hardcore from the start. being roguelike, there you know that you’ll need patience, strategy, management and a little bit of luck in order to finish it on easy.
better not buying the game at all than buying it, complain and give up (just like I did!)
game requires zero execution btw!
Capcom are not being honest with their SF4 playerbase
SNK, Namco, Netherrealm, Arcsys and Labzero on the other hand are
Noob friendly and accessible just means that you can easily get into the game(which is true for SF4)… It does NOT mean that you can play for a little bit and then hope contend with a top player. This is true for anything competitive.
Disagree. Plenty of people started with SF4. There are top players now who started with SF4, and later iterations. It’s not really about how long you have been playing, but if you’re willing to put in the work.
I dont see how Capcom are being dishonst. I wanted Street Fighter IVAE, I bought it, I’m playing it, I like it. I dont feel cheated at all, the game is gorgeous and responsive. Keep it up Capcom. I have 8 hours on this game, and ~70 hours on fighting games as a whole.
Its all about process. Practice, find weakness, practice, and enjoy the process.
Nor would I assert that, difficulty if defined solely as versus a human opponent is totally subjective.
If you can’t beat another person its because they are better/you need practice. I’m not sure what the complaint it, everyone had the same access to practice mode, the same choice of characters, the same release date (unless ur PC like me). The game takes points from the genre of fighter-games which pre-existed dinosaurs.
Its like saying “hey that guy played Starcraft 1 he’s cheating”, the skill was always there, always cheap, available to everyone. This game is easy on all fronts to get into, but to master it is of course like any other skill.
Want to play like Daigo? Find out how many hours he has, what games he played first, then copy him. If you’re gifted, u’ll get there faster. Want to play casually, then enjoy the art design, music, maps, etc. and just smash easy AI or play with ur friends. This game is totally approachable and in a very cool way, its appealing to people that just want pretty graphics as well as people that want a challenge.
EDIT: I want to add that I play casual games, as stated earlier. Sonic Racing Transformed LOCKS a bunch of good characters and requires that you get S class against insane AIs to get them. This game on the other hand gives you all the characters for FREE. Sonic Racing Tranformed is a far more difficult casual game than this is.
EDIT2: This game is gorgeous man…
Ah yes, here come the slippery slope arguments (rofl wut u jus wunt sum IWIN buttin noob), the assertions that the best player winning anyway somehow invalidates criticism of excessive execution fetishism (lol wut justan wongg wud still beet u so its oh-k dat cap-com haets chains), and all the other buttery goodness this sort of thread always attracts.
I dont recall seeing a slippery slope argument, I can tell you are new to logical fallacies so I will educate you.
- A fallacy isn’t necessarily wrong, a slippery slope can be well founded and accurate but they are often not.
- Because a slippery slope argument was not made to my knowledge, this suggests you are forming an argument your opponent did not make, this is called a strawman fallacy. A strawman is always null, because the opponent did not make the argument you are charging.
- Your use of adjectives suggests you are speaking emotionally.
- Misrepresenting arguments through mispelling is childish.
"execution fetishism"
4/10. I docked you because of the 9gag language.
Edit: Wait… you joined 12 years ago and talk like that? that means you have to be like in ur twenties…
0/10.
Monstrously stupid in every way. I’ll explain why this time, but in the future I’ll just compare you to the empty left half of my scrotum and move on.
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And a bird goes tweet. Congratulations for jumping to the conclusion that I don’t know about logical fallacies while failing to ask yourself the much more important question of “hey, maybe I’m not all that smart and maybe I shouldn’t be acting like a pompous asshole.” If you had…
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… You would have seen that, on this very page, someone did make a slippery slope argument comparing the arguments for more accessibility with wanting instant-win buttons. Congratulations, you can’t read.
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Actually dipshit my use of adjectives suggest I’m using adjectives. PROTIP: language isn’t always super concise. Sometimes, to get a point across and/or to add some tone to the very tone-less context of the internet forum, adjectives are useful.
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That’s “misspelling” genius. Two Ses. PROTIP: It’s not too late to claim you did that on purpose. Go ahead, I don’t mind.
“Execution fetishism.” To anyone with even a remote grasp of the language (i.e., not you), that means “fetishizing execution.” The issue arising when games make actions harder than they need to be for no good reason except for fetishists to get all creamy in the crotchal region (yes, I know that’s not a thing you tool, I was being coy). It’s an issue in fighting games, one that some devs actively try to combat, one that some devs have no problem embracing.
“9gag language” what the fuck are you even talking about. You’re saying there’s a regular occurrence of the words “execution” and “fetishism” consecutively on 9gag? I wouldn’t know because I’m not a blithering idiot who regularly browses 9gag while proving a woeful understanding language and concepts I would presume to teach others, but I’m legitimately intrigued: where, on 9gag, is this common? Take your time; given you pulled that out of your ass (a common thing with you, it seems), I understand you’ll have some serious Googling to do.
I mean, you wouldn’t want to look fucking stupid now, right?
When I started this game(first fighting game) a year ago, I thought it was pretty casual friendly. I didn’t really care/know about matchups and such. I just liked to throw hadoukens, shoryus, and sweeps, even if my motions weren’t too crisp.
TL;DR.
The problem with sending (flawed) fallacy accusations while intermingling technical words with 9gag language is that the overall message is kinda tacky. I’m sorry for the low score I gave you, but its really the best I could do.
Now, if you try to add something constructive to the discussion I will gladly give you a new grade.
EDIT: A tip I found on another post here is to phrase ur comment like a review, in your case I’m thinking it has to do with the supernatural focus on executions. So perhaps:
“The overemphasis of executions lowers the overall fun of the game and yet fanboys defend it.” Something in that spectrum I suppose.
Just imagine its an amazon review.
You’re an idiot.
Thats nice.
Anywho now that axi has proven himself less intelligent than the cancer-ridden testicle that once inhabited my nutsack and I’ve had a chance to read more of the thread, I think there’s a couple of fundamental concepts being mixed up here.
The first is casual friendliness. The second is accessibility.
On the first: I despise the term casual, and the term hardcore. I’m a “casual” MMO player, a more “hardcore” fighting game player (aka, I go to gatherings and tourneys when I can but I really should practice more), and an X Y player, where X is some measure of dedication/enthusiasm and Y is a gaming genre. When I hear “casual-friendly,” I assume “rewarding even if you don’t play a lot.” That’s not something any competitive game worth its salt can truly be, IMO, but different strokes for different folks; some people learn faster than others and need less practice, or excel at learning on the fly vs. spending time in training mode.
On the second: accessibility is something even the best players in the world think is damaging to the genre. It isn’t. All accessibility means is “make it easier to play.” Not “to WIN,” but “to play.” Things like doing a proper fucking button check and having netcode that isn’t garbage is definitely accessibility. Having a HUD that tells you everything you need to know to play falls under that as well. What also counts, what people hate for little good reason, is when it’s suggested that a particular move should be made easier to perform, so that we lower the execution bar as much as humanly possible and see who can out-think their opponents the best.
There’s one good argument – and only one – for keeping a particular move tied to a particular command, or set of commands, or other dexterity check: to ensure the move cannot be abused. A QCB command grab works for Kanji in P4A because Kanji is designed around quarter circle motions, but if Zangief could suddenly SPD with a mere QCB+P in Ultra, that’d be a nightmarish thing to deal with.
But arguably there are games Zangief has been in where you could make SPD a quarter circle and Zangief would still be terrible, but at least better than before. Maybe there, the SPD should be buffed to earn that 360 motion, or maybe in those games it should be QCB. That’s a hypothetical. This isn’t: does Chicken Wing really need to be 12369? (Yeah numeric notation all of a sudden big whoop fuck off.) Maybe yes, maybe not. Sirlin didn’t think so in HDR; Capcom Japan thought so in SF4.
That’s the accessibility discussion, and it’s discussion worth having in perpetuity, while brushing aside anyone who would say that dexterity checks are part of the spectacle or whatever, as if they could answer why we shouldn’t just make every Super/Ultra motion the same as Geese’s Raging Storm if a move being harder to perform than it reasonably should somehow makes it “better.”
Linking jabs/shorts to make them cancellable to somehow “cut down” on cr. LP/LK x2 combos when they happen anyway in a more lethargic, more boring, yet somehow more difficult way is another example of talking accessibility, and one much less easily defended by proponents of execution for the sake of it. Same with a heavy emphasis on 1-frame links in a game with no link buffer or significant chains (and where chains are arguably much more skillful AND easier to perform, in other games at least, but that’s a discussion for elsewhere).
Bah, brain melting. Too hot. Going sleepy.
I have been playing sf since sf2 for snes up until now and enjoyed every bit of it. I considered myself a noob/casual player because i do not spend endless hrs playing but that doesnt mean i want a dumbed down sf game. I am a casual with most games (except guildwars) i play but i enjoy the highest difficulty possible.