Don’t you think it’s kind of fucked up that basically the meat of the game, the parts that REALLY matter once you get beyond the mashing level, are the parts that the game NEVER tells you about, either in the manual or in the game itself? I mean, in a sense, it’s kinda cool that there’s a whole other game waiting for you, kinda like the upside-down castle in SotN, but on the other hand…you could play the regular castle in Castlevania and be ok with the game. You can’t do that in SF4, if you’re playing online, or beyond your jackass drunk friends. I have pretty damn good footsies, and I beat people I know have spent a lot more time with SF4 than I have. Footsies are pretty fucking important, and they’re never mentioned.
If you think about it, footsies are basically another in-game mechanic, but one that’s NEVER touched upon in the manual, the game, etc. Unless you hit up SRK, Sonichurricane, or the SF Wiki, you’d NEVER know about any of that.
That’s because footsies is a concept and meta game developed by the community and players, which is then implemented via the toolset provided by the game. Not every character can play footsies as well or the same as the next because it’s not a tool in every character’s box, but noobs want to act like the only reason they don’t play footsies is because it wasn’t included in the tutorial. Footsies is different for every character, situation and playstyle, and the demand for a tutorial on footsies shows just how little they grasp about the concept. They treat it like a general blanket strat that works the same for everyone when it’s super dependent on the matchup. You know how long and in-depth a footsie tutorial would have to be if it were included in the game? It would have to be character specific and address individual match-ups.The truth of the matter is if they’re too impatient and can’t be bothered to do something as simple as hit up the forums, then they don’t have the capacity or patience to learn it in general.
Same deal for counter-hit setups. If these guys are complining about 1-frame links, how are they supposed to react to the counter hit and punish when they refuse to develop proper, precise and accurate timing?
Let me ask you, how would a footsies tutorial be taught? Would it be per character? Would it practice against Dan? Or would you have every character in the cast show up and whiff moves? What moves would the dummy whiff? Would the tutorial tell you to wiggle your stick back and forth, occasionally crouching to pretend like you’re going to hit a low normal to bait a whiffed move to punish?
Because all those things can be done by programming the training dummy…but I guess that’s too much work for players who want to skip right to being good competition.
in 1993 a newcomer wouldnt need to learn all that stuff that is required today. just know the basic moves and employ 2-3 cheap tactics, which had its own difficulty back then. footsies would be rather basic. Today all this would be considered just casual.
But in the internet and online age a newcomer has to absorb 20 years of meta-game. Information is readily available, but applying that information to practice is what makes this more difficult. A newcomer from today would beat the one from 20 years ago with ease, if he practiced enough that is.
it is like in team sports. an average player of today would be considered amazing during the 60s, because at that time players had all the free space and time to develop their game, without getting used to opponents pressure like today.
which makes today’s training much more intense and difficult than before.
Footsies weren’t normal back in the day. C’mon man, judging from your handle, you’ve got to be at least 35 years old. Do you remember everyone at the arcade, bowling alley, laundromat and corner store using footsies? There were just as many jumpers then than there are now. Footsies being more common then than they are now is just outright an assumption based on the low character count and limited moveset…but you know full well that footsies was never a universal and common tactic. Footsies was then what it is now, an approach employed by those who play the game on a level higher than intermediate.
Street Fighter IV is extremely accessible because it’s very easy to play with low-to-mid level skill and feel like you’re high level. The only thing required is opponents at your own skill level. Online, this is rare. Offline, it’s extremely common. I play SF4 with my friends all the time and although we’re utter nubz, we have plenty of fun because we all win a reasonable amount - except one or two of us who are a slightly higher level. I taught most of my friends how to play and most take to it fairly quickly: lesson #1 usually involves teaching them the specials because that’s how to get them interested, lesson #2 involves me picking Guile and spamming sonic boom so that they learn how to dodge fireballs, then spamming flash kick when they get close so they learn the concept of “know when you’re close enough to get hit, block the hit, then punish the recovery”, lesson #3 usually (if they picked a character with a projectile) involves picking the same character as them and starting a fireball war with them so that they learn exactly how long charge time is (if they picked a charge character) and how to perform a move consistently and quickly. Then the lessons get character-specific. Once they’re decent, they usually have a lot of fun at the mini-tournaments I run. I’m still a higher level than most of them (some were apt pupils and give me a run for my money) so in order to keep them from getting frustrated I pick characters I’m weaker with when fighting them - they have a chance, I get challenging but achievable practice with a character I’m not great with, we both have fun in a match where we’re both trying our hardest, and they get something to aim for - “being good enough to force Leo to use M. Bison, then beating him” is now kind of an achievement a lot of people in my scene brag about, even if they’ve only ever done it once. AND I’M TERRIBLE. Honestly, I still can’t complete all of Bison’s trials, I’m that bad. I don’t put nearly enough practice mode time in. But you don’t have to be EVO level to have fun at this game.
The only thing I would say needs improvement is that matchmaking either puts people with drastically different skill levels together, or doesn’t match them with anyone at all. That’s more of a result of there not being many players to begin with, than any fault of the game itself.
that is way past the point of accessible for casual.
easy special move & super move inputs
big damage without long difficult combos, hardpunch/kick into special move is already a good punish for most characters
lots of characters have some sort of easy hitconfirm combo
lots of characters with easy anti-airs
huge comeback mechanic
Agreed. The game has a low bar for entry, but it also has options for people who want to take it up a notch. Punishes aren’t difficult in any game, even a casual/beginner will recognize when he can safely get a boatload of damage.
The issue is, although we deem the game to be easy to get into, most noobs think it’s really difficult. I’ve tried to get a number of my friends into this game, and although they can all hold their own in games like DOTA or SC, they all said the same thing about SF4, it’s too hard. Here’s some of their most common objections:
-“It’s too hard to do combos.”
“I feel like I need to spend too much time in training to get decent.”
“I want to just out think my opponent, but I don’t have the execution”
“I know what I want to do, but I can’t do it”
-" I have no idea what I’m doing, so I just uppercut"
To argue this game is easy to get into is just ignorant and lacks understanding. Do a survey, ask your friends. Most of them will tell you it’s too hard. Your opinion is not the same as the majority of new players who know nothing of fighting games.
SF4 is easier only in relation to other 2D fighting games. Of course it has a degree of difficulty as every fighting game. Not as hard as KOFXIII but not as easy as MK9 or Injustice either.
But if they’d tried a fighter like Guilty Gear, Blazblue, Skullgirls, Melty Blood, where the amount of time you need to spend on each character requires the memorization of long combos, they’d find SF4 much easier and less boring in comparison.
only difference is that in the games above once you pass that stage you’re ready to compete decently.
while on SF4 you’ll be stuck to the same level but at least you’ll enjoy the game much more.
You start to feel effective in other hand far quicker, because the basic control inputs, such as a hit confirm, are much, much easier. The ramp to feeling like you can start to play the game is really steep in sf4
You’re taking the terms “accessible” and “easy to get into” and confusing them with “having absolutely no bar of entry”.
So what if your friends can hold their own in a moba or rtc? What does that prove? The only thing it proves is they like THAT GENRE of video games. Now you want them to easily access a fighting game without the “barrier” of execution, practice or research? Why? Why should this game be expected to require absolutely no work and effort when the games you mentioned your friends play are equally as demanding?
And maybe the question you should ask yourself is, “do my friends actually WANT to play and be good at this game?”…because, you know, that’s kind of important. Just like anything and everything else in this world, this game requires some form of dedication because of its depth and strategy. Why in the world should intent and a flippant casual interest be enough for someone to demand instant results?
KoF13 has some pretty lengthy tutorials, and it’s trial modes are very specific in exactly what you need to do in order to perform them(it even gives you the option of watching the computer perform it, so you know what it’s supposed to look like)
Skullgirls also has very in-depth teaching modes that basically teach you how to play a fighting game from the ground up.
Developers want people to play their games, yes? the more people they get hooked on their game, the more people who will continue to buy further products from them(let’s be real, very few total new players will be buying Ultra)
Thus it is in THEIR best interests to put good teaching tools in the game to help people learn and master them, which cuts down on frustration and confusion and gives the player a better, more positive view on the game, and quite possibly earns them a repeat customer for later games.
Hey guys. Im going to give my two cents about 1 frame links.
Imo for me this isn’t an easy question to answer when it comes to 1 frame links being in the game, here lets look at this from two angles. On one hand when it comes to being heavily pressured by the opponent you are bound to drop combos, links and even punish your opponents move (even unsafe moves) it happens every time in a heavily intense match. For the most part i would put footies about 1 frame links due to the fact you are not always going to be inside your opponents range to do 1 link combos.
On the other hand one frame links are by far the most demanding to land due to them being having a very strict window, I doubt anyone can get them down 100%, pretty much impossible. (mostly due to pressure) If your character requires 1 frames to do alot of damage but yet you drop it you can get heavily punished, 2 frames still require timing to get down but they are far more generous and forgiving compared to 1 frames.
A beginner shouldn’t fret over 1 frames because you’ll be doing footies, throwing, resets, baiting out attacks far more often than landing combo’s believe it or not. Should they be in the game? im not sure, I don’t mind them being in the game but it is a hassle if you have to maximize your damage output with them.
The problem with your argument (not “the problem with you” as so many freaking over sensitive people on this site seem to take it as) is that those games with better tutorials, etc. still don’t attract huge swarms of casual players, mainly because casual players know fighting games are largely not for casual players. People play games to feel a sense of reward. That’s why games like Farmville will always attract exponentially more players than USF4. If you want to feel rewarded in a fighting game where each person is trying to defeat the other in 1 v 1 combat, you need to put time in and learn “the tricks” and you need to also be willing to lose. This is not casual. Add the absolute piss poor attitude of many online players and BOOM, casual players go elsewhere.
yeah i don’t want the SF series to be catered towards casual players. beginners sure, but not casual. they ruin everything. this game is made to be this way and that’s what makes it fun and attractive. if you put some bullshit tap forward and a button to do srk, then i know i’m done with this series and i know tons of people will lose interest as well. there’s always something challenging to learn in fighting games that are a little on the hard side.
Careful, with that kind of talk, you’ll be labeled an elitist.
Maybe Mad Catz should just create a macro joystick that noobs can program commands, combos and joystick + button sequences so that they can feel good about themselves. Play just like Daigo for $150!..but GTFO if you’re trying to enter a tournament with it.
Mad Catz can call it the “U Mad Broz TE Stick”. TE standing for “Theory Execution”.
Older Capcom games did not have practical 1 frame links because of frame skip. Smooth, consistent frame rate was not a thing until SF3(Well, I guess World Warrior and Championship had smooth frame rates since they predated Turbo). You also wrote this post seemingly thinking links and 1 frame links are the same thing when they’re not. One of Cammy’s most important B&B combos in ST is low strong, low forward xx Spiral Arrow. This combo is a 4 frame link. IIRC, and if I don’t someone will correct me, but this combo was one of the more difficult B&Bs. Sure, the game had frame skip because of turbo, but that means sometimes it was a 3 frame link instead. Links were not the part of SF2 that were hard, the small, and often random input windows for special moves was.
Frame advantage on attacks in the older games is the same on hit or block, the only moves that were safe on hit but not on block were attacks that caused knockdown. That’s also something that overall made entry easier - combos and block strings were the same fucking thing unless you were specifically attempting a frame trap.
Chains not being able to special cancel unless specifically marked out as a “target combo” is archaic as fuck, and there was no reason at all to deliberately go back to that time.
SF4’s initial “ease of access” came from making special inputs easier, and everything else harder.
Edit:
I have no idea how you can even come to this conclusion when they adjust the amount of start up, active, recovery, and stun of multiple moves each revision. A move has exactly as much recovery and stun as the developers want it to have. This is really easy to see in the MvC3 series - some moves in vanilla have higher recovery than in Ultimate, and still have that full same amount of animation too them in ultimate if you let them play out, but you’re considered recovered and can cut them off into moving, not canceling them in other attacks, but moving, much earlier than their animations would allow if things were as rigid and unintended as you seem to think they are.
Non-juggle links don’t even exist in 3d games in large part, because the devs have every move set to be very slightly positive or negative on hit, such that there is never enough frame advantage outside of special states to combo moves that are not specifically intended to combo. Frame advantage in games is not in anyway shape or form determined by how pretty an animator wanted to make a move.
Additional Edit: I wish people would actually look what up “dial a combo” fucking means before using it. Chains are not dial a combo by nature, chains still require timing, it’s possible to do them to fast and skip hits, or to cause them to drop, and sometimes even have to be slowed down deliberately to account for how a characters hurtbox reels on hit. Dial a combo is MK3 style - no matter how fast you enter the combo inputs the entire combo will still come out flawlessly, it’s impossible to skip inputs, and the only timing ever required is to be fast enough to do it.
Quality of life improvements won’t wreck anybody’s precious and totally arbitrary difficulty thresholds.
Re: chains: they aren’t “dial a combo.” The reason chains rock and are way better than links is because they can have varied timing and different branches. Links are harder to perform, usually ways more static (much more “dial a combo,” just with stricter timing), and dull from any standpoint that isn’t consistent performance.
Okay, so let’s say that the next Street Fighter game does away with those evil links, makes inputs even easier and cuts the cast in half so that we have to learn less match ups. In addition, combos will be easier to perform due to buffering windows and further increased hit stun…what’s left?
New players seem to think that execution, dexterity and precise timing are unfair barriers that are keeping them from attaining the success they feel they deserve, but in reality, that same dexterity, execution and precise timing is what makes the game competitive. Those elements that the new players hate so much are the very things add human element and temporary excellence to a fighting game player.
Why temporary? Let’s take any and every top player. We’ve all seen them win countless victories due to great reads, reactions and execution…but we’ve also seen them fudge inputs, drop combos, or make wrong reads. All those things come together in a perfect blend and bring an actual physical element to video games, which are usually static, or at least require only a few button presses and nothing more. Yes, top players are amazing, but they are also susceptible to missing links, combos and commands…once you get to a certain level, it doesn’t mean you never make mistakes. The demands some folks are making are taking away any chance of human error or mistake. Why would a clutch combo, come back, well-timed reversal or amazing read under pressure be amazing if there were no room for error in them?
Can you imagine what a match would look like if execution, errors and physically demanding elements were taken out? It would just be a game of turtling until someone did something absolutely stupid, which would then get punished by an obviously long and optimized combo that wouldn’t have a chance of being dropped. After the knockdown, a jump in would either lead to another optimized combo or a flawless reversal, which would lead back to turtling and waiting for another super mistake to punish.
The human element of video games is expressed almost perfectly in fighting games, with a great mix of physical training, mental quickness and strategy. Why does everyone want to turn it into either a turn-based theory fighter card game or lower the bar so as much that there’s no room for excellence?
If players are getting frustrated because they’re losing, it’s obviously because they’re trying to bite off more than they can chew and trying to stand toe to toe with someone more experienced. Instead if demanding experience, dexterity, knowledge and skill not be a factor, why not admit they’re not as good as they want to be (yet) and play against someone their level until they get a better grasp of the game?
Did you even read this shit before you posted it? Making moves and combos more intuitive, fluid and yes, easier, does nothing to remove player reactions, tendencies, reads, or baits from the game. No one goes into a an intermediate or higher match of any FG and says “I’m going to go balls in and not turtle because there’s a chance my opponent might drops his combos!” People will always make judgement errors, get baited, or simply not react fast enough no matter how low the execution barrier is.
Chain combos get dropped all the time. As as much as people often say they want to “make their own combos instead of using the ones the devs put in for us” links are every bit as predetermined as chains, unless hitstun values are assigned by throwing darts at a board. Chains tend to offer more options than links, because they’re designed around flowing through paths. BlazBlue and GG are actually vastly easier at the “I just picked up this game for the first time” level because of their overall intuitive chains for moderate rewards, yet GG especially is harped on as being the hardest fighter of all time rather often. Vampire Savior chains are not only simple and intuitive, but tend to actually represent the characters B&B combos at all levels of play, the difficultly in Vsav comes from defense far more than offense. The only reason these games still have smaller communities is that they aren’t Street Fighter. The main stream recognition to the IP is just not out there enough, and their publishers aren’t throwing enough money at advertising to get them to even register on the gaming radars of non-FG players.