Concerning tiers: From this one Tougeki book I read, the tier listing actually went like this:
S Tier - Yun, Chun
A Tier - Ken, Makoto, Yang
B Tier - Dudley, Gouki, Urien
C Tier - Everyone else (it actually said “everyone else”)
Concerning not going for the 100% stun - Okay, maybe I exaggerated on “risking losing big damage” by missing the double Fukiage, but Makoto has enough options available to stun the opponent without having to resort to it. She can reset the opponent in the air after the first hit and she gets a free mixup with a pretty good chance to stun the opponent anyway.
I guess the point I was trying to make is in tournament play, going for the “safer, more guaranteed” damage is better than risk screwing up a high risk-high reward move and get nothing at all.
IDK about that, people generally say Makoto has a terrible wakeup game, but it’s just really high-risk and reward. She gambles on wakeup. She you can catch with a Karakusa, turn it around completely, and game over if you’re in the corner, you catch them with her one-frame startup reversal SA1 if they don’t meaty and win, parry whatever they do is a free Karakusa most of the time, SA3 has 2/3 second invincible startup that’s cancelable into anything, so bait anything with reversal SA3 and you pretty much win, jumping and canceling her trajectory into EX Axe Kick beats throws and non-meaty lows, even a random SA2 isn’t a bad wakeup option, they pretty much lose if you catch them doing a punishable low. One wrong guess against Makoto and you lose, and that’s the same with her wake-up game. Still, blocking on wake-up with Makoto generally leaves her in a bad position.
Chun-Li definately has safer options, kara-throw will come out faster than anything that isn’t meaty, wakeup c.MK xx super means game over, f.HK will beat throws and lows, and low blocking doesn’t fuck up her game. But Makoto definitely can beat more ass on wakeup. She bets more money before she rolls the dice.
You can’t hate on Makoto; all of the practice and time it takes to learn her and how hard it is to be unpredictable so you won’t get your ass kicked. Out of all of the pro Third Strike players Makotos make the most mistakes and are easily punished for it, Take it from me kid it sucks trying to rushdown against someone who knows Makoto. She has no defense stategy except crouch block and parry and getting a Karakusa is like almost a special treat and that’s her ecential move.
IMO that thinking will get you killed (with any character). Against players that I don’t give much credit (be it rightfully so or not) I always expect them to try something. DP, parry, throw, anything. Nervous/non-calm players almost can’t help themselves and press buttons or do something. Blocking should be the default thing you do when you get up. If I taught at a school for fighting game players, this is what I’d teach on day one. [/preach]
As soon as your opponent is noticing makoto trying smth special on wakeup he will just jump in which will kill most of your options (actually every option except SA and that Fukithingy [which no sane player will use I guess]).
edit: oh since we are talking about Q vs Makoto (more or less was that the point of the thread) well… he is probably trying to set you up for the CnDB…so Karakusa is no good idea at all…Wakeup SA never is a good idea (except you see a pretty slow move coming) oh well he point is if you try something you will eat his slashes if you don’t try anything you will eat the CnDB…
This didn’t disprove anything. It just showed MOV showing off.
Going for the safer damage is the smarter thing to do; this isn’t something I’m pulling out of my ass here. I’m by no means a top player, but this is something a lot of them will say when it comes to tournament play.
The parry into jump-in combo wasn’t for the sake of bigger damage but just to mess with Nuki.
And I never said top players don’t do risky shit(Daigo back when he played), but rather I said IT IS SMARTER to go for the guaranteed damage. Watch Spellmaster J play in that very same vid: he takes little to no risks in all his matches and he plays incredibly well.
Makoto isn’t as good as Chun or Yun because she has to take more risk for similiar results. Chun really can take little risk during a round and win off 2 option select parries and a random fierce. Also not that people don’t fuck it up but Chun’s hit confirm is easy to do like 90% + of the time. Genei-Jin is little to no risk if the Yun is any good for 20-40% of your bar and is easily hit confirmable not that you need to, just spam that shit.
Makoto against most of the cast needs a karakusa or parry to do big damage and against good players karakusa’s are few and far between because any good player realizes that a karakusa is far more detrimental than 3 cr. lk > hayate’s. About the 100% stun, about most of the time you don’t need it to stun them. Her 95% stun combo is actually pretty hard to mess up and all you need is a MP or cr. lk > hayate and they’re stunned. Or just have hit them with a combo recently. Makoto’s stun is ridiculous and no one denies it, but the scenario where you 100% someone other than Akuma off it is rare unless you don’t play around it
Makoto also is terrible defensively. If you put forth 50% of the effort a good Makoto does to keep their game fresh she’ll have a horrible time defending herself. Also if you consider reversal SAI a strongly viable reversal your smoking crack. Mixup jump-ins with empty’s and just playing a conservative ground game and boom you’ve nuetralized that as a reversal option. Not that it’s unusable and if you meaty to early your asking for it, but it’s not easy to hit outside of hayate >SAI if you don’t run into stuff.
One thing to keep in mind is Q has a harder time against Makoto than Yun or Chun just because of their different abilities. Q has 0 ways to punish a LK karakusa. Hell Karakusa even punishes reversal super which is hilarious. That fact alone makes the matchup nearly unwinnable for Q. As Q has piss poor mixup so Makoto (a normally high risk character) can just play conservative and abuse karakusa till you win.
Makoto is Qs worst matchup. But as everyone knows Makoto has actually no defense and Q a great cornering game…how does this matchup work? Waiting in the corner til Makoto has finally finished you?
Q has a great corner game ??? News to me. Hell thought he was considered 3rd worst character in the game for good reasons …
Without mixup or good pressure how does he have a good corner game? I’ve played good Q’s, but I’ve never felt overwhelmed. He has no ability to even take advantage of Makoto’s terrible defense as he has no pressure string that can reliably hold makoto down. All a Q player can do is have a flawless defense and try to safely option select parry into dmg. He can counterpoke and try to tick an input throw on you, but even his input throw is fairly slow and easy to dodge on reaction. Not like Q can’t win cuz he hits like a truck just this is all uphill for him. He is at a disadvantage to Makoto’s superior options at nearly every point of a much.
The few chances you do see Q corner Makoto, the smart thing to do will be to NOT try and pressure her. Q is not Akuma/Chun/Dudley; he does not have the proper mixups to be able to keep Makoto worried, and one correct guess is all she needs to take the match.
This matchup isn’t impossible; Q CAN keep her out with his low pokes and he might be able to snag some lucky Dash Punches or catch her whiffed pokes with SA1. He can also get some free karathrows off of blocked Hayates. But what makes this such a bad matchup for Q is that Makoto has a billion ways to be able to get in close enough. Her closeup game is what murders him; it’s like Q vs Alex but much scarier since she’s so fuckin’ fast.
Dashpunch, Slaps, CnDB, UOH. All you need to pressure Makoto in the corner since her only REAL option is to jump away and when she stops doing that it’s CnDB time (rocks in the corner since you can put her back on her feet). I fear good Qs cornering me since they can kill me within 2 combos and that’s pretty scary ( I am no Makoto player though but well…Q can do loads of dmg)
WTF! Jumping in on Makoto during wakeup kills her options as much as it does for any other character. o_O Hell, high block, or parry that shit and s.jab, either kara-command grab or dash under and cross up them up during air reset. Wow, jumping in on Makoto kills her options, my fucking ass.
Jump in sucks against any char with a decent anti air. Dashing under is pretty much impossible except the jump is pretty much mistimed. Block/Parry only works if it is no empty jump in and well…args anyways I give up. Makoto has a great defense and Q just can’t corner anyone…guess you are right.