Lv1 FA is -1 after a perfect dash I believe, so no command throw on Block.
Lv2 FA is +5 after a perfect dash, so you still have a 7-9 frame gap if you do a perfectly executed Dash> Tenshin.
In short, it’s not a good mind game at all. Most people will have a GTFO reaction once you dash in that close anyway–you’re likely to be hit by an SRK or other attack in that case.
DaFeetLee thank you for making my day=)
nosone you really are missing the fundamental problems of MK CW which are absolutely no damage potential, maxing out at 110 if close and that every time this is blocked the opponent gets the initiative. And as far as footsies go Fei is fairly good at footsies so there is no need to throw MK CW out at mid range, not even the old HK CW was that good to throw out midscreen and it has at least triple the damage potential. You can’t apply old HK CW tactics on MK CW.
Just play normal footsies instead and your game will improve a lot.
Well I’ve fought G1-Honda’s and that’s the highest rank as far as I know…I’m talking about 30k to 40k GP Hondas… Honda’s who know how to do st. LP > HP slaps easily and use auto tracking EX Headbutts well(although not consistant enough to discourage me from crossing up). I’ve seen all of Honda’s tricks already…he can’t really do much and unless you’re just standing there like a sitting duck, I don’t see too much he can do against Fei that poses a problem aside from his strength.
At -2, MK CW on block isn’t very bad at all especially against Honda. Now against Gief and Ryu who have supers that come out in 1 frame, than obviously you wouldn’t want to do it. But like I said, strategy is the key here. The damage potential comes from the mindgames after the CW…when you hit, it’s +2 so you have the initiative. Even if MK CW is blocked, you’re still pretty safe b/c Honda doesn’t have any moves that come out fast enough to punish. ALL his attempts to retaliate can be stuffed by another CW or Flamekick so trust me, Honda isn’t gonna be happily ready to retaliate unless he knows what you’re gonna do first…when the opponent always has to second guess every move and by a total psychic, that means you win the mind game battle.
If you think in terms of guarantees and hit-confirmed combos, that only serves to limit your game. CW is about playing mind games positioning. You don’t always attack in chess; some movements are setups for larger things to come.
Fei’s footsies are limited compared to other characters (shotos esp.). At cr.MK range, his damage potential is limited to only the damage you get from cr.MK> Super/cr.HP. If you have no Super (about 80-100% of each round), then you have no real damage potential. An arguement for that is fundamentally the same as an argument for MK CW, which is in many respects, safe on block or hit depending on your action of choice following it.
A -2 “initiative” isn’t enough to launch any attack (barring Z’s), and will actually help a Flame Kick beat an SRK by “absorbing” the initial invincibility frames. By delaying invincibility frames you can actually gain an advantage, so it’s not all black and white with frame advantage/disadvantage.
Footsies at close range (cr.LK BnB range), I will concede, has the most damage potential, but is also the most hazardous range to play in. This is not where I campaign for MK CW use. I’m talking about using MK CW where one would normally use cr.MK and slower, or (barely) a little farther off from that.
No one is applying old HK CW tactics to MK CW. We’re applying general CW tactics to MK CW; ones that were not fully developed when the old HK CW was around. Legacy HK CW is a moot point, I’m just trying to get you to stop saying that we think MK CW got better after some time–we don’t. We’re just seeing the general advantages of CW now.
“Fei’s footsies are limited compared to other characters (shotos esp.). At cr.MK range, his damage potential is limited to only the damage you get from cr.MK> Super/cr.HP. If you have no Super (about 80-100% of each round), then you have no real damage potential. An arguement for that is fundamentally the same as an argument for MK CW, which is in many respects, safe on block or hit depending on your action of choice following it.”
From that distance MK CW is just a horrible poke all around. It comes out at 16 frames, don’t move very far, not hard to punish and in general will rather get blocked than hit so Fei has to play shoryu guessing games for damage which isn’t advantageous and random (obviously).
There is simply no reason to poke with MK CW instead of Rekkas/focus and his normal pokes are nice too.
Rekkas don’t open up mind games and are easily interruptible/tradeable with pokes. MK CW? Less likely so.
Lv1 Focus potshots can help achieve an effect similar to MK CW, but does no chip and forces you to stand still; if you misspace or if your opponent evades the attack, you’re left wide open for anything. A successful focus also depends on how quickly you can input the dash to take advantage of the +/- frames. Attacks/maneuvers out of CW can be drummed easily right before the end of the animation.
Lv2 Focus requires set-up time. It’s a good tool, but not the same.
Normal pokes at that range, again, have the same damage potential as MK CW.
Your points against MK CW are:
Ok:
16 frames, yes, but I challenge you to stop MK CW cold at the range I’m prescribing when you’re not spamming the DP motion. I wouldn’t suggest MK CW if it couldn’t catch people like this.
Is it supposed to? The farther the attack moves, the harder it is to land on a crouching opponent (HK/EX CW will likely empty-cross up). If the opponent is crouching, they’re likely blocking or prepping a low attack making it a good time to launch.
It’s difficult to punish on contact, so I assume you mean counter. This would point back to #1.
Blocked? Ok, I’m safe and I got away with some chip damage. So I back dash and Rekka; Flame Kick> FADC; throw him if he’s expecting either of those, etc. If he tries an attack while my Flame Kick is coming out, I get a Flame Kick combo. Same deal with back dash to Rekka. Those are three main options, two of which are relatively non-risky.
Random? Cool. But it doesn’t have to be. Flame Kick> FADC and back dash make it random for your opponent, and less random for you. What can he really expect when you do it the first time? Too many options to count, so go for the safe one if you must. Test his reactions and use that against him the next time or the time after.
Ah but I feel like this is the same argument we have every time. Whatever, I’ll stick to what works for me–you don’t have to use it. Throw another argument at me if you feel like having the last word.
^^^ i understand why you would continue to use it, as it works well for you right now. i think a good part of that success may have a loet to do with people not knowing how to fight fei. at 16 frames of startup, its 10 frames slower than kens EX tatsu.(comprable move with similar frame advantage/disadvantage) and im sure your eyes light up every time you see a ken scrub go into a hurricane kick at mid range.
the diffrence is that we fight ken/ryu on a regular basis. MK CW does have its uses, as an anti throw measure, and as a mix in from time to time as an opening move against someone who is likely to throw a non sagat FB at the start of a round. i just feel as tho it may be a bad habit to get into when you have safer options from that range. time will tell tho.
Thanks to everyone for the props on the guide, I’m just glad everyone has enjoyed it and found it useful. It’s the least I can do for future fei players.
On the honda matchup:
I don’t see much of a use for chicken wing vs honda. At a range where HK version would touch him while he crouches, he can easily react to it with headbutt. Up close it will beat out throw attempts but if you whiff he can just walk up and ochio you I believe.
MK chicken wing may go over some of his lower pokes at mid range so it’s probably not completely useless. But a move that leaves you at -4 on block vs a throw character is probably not something you use all the time. You can backdash or neutral jump or flame kick to compensate for this but what if honda knows this? He can block, wait and see, and then headbutt all those options. So what do you do then? Just block? Oh shit you just got ochioed.
I’m not saying it’s a bad move to use all the time if you can get it to work, but don’t ever put yourself in a situation where you have to make a guess that isn’t really in your favor. Having to guess to stay safe is NOT GOOD.
I usually try to fight him just outside his jab range so he can’t make me block hands. Cross ups every now and then are good but he can just butt slam those so I wouldn’t spam them. Overhead is great vs him since all hondas crouch like they’re taking a dump 24/7.
I dunno to me this matchup is best if you just pester him outside his effective range and force him to start taking risks. Fei wins once he starts doing that.
On the Sakura matchup:
Getting in close to her is a baaaaaad idea. Just stay the hell away and zone her since you have better pokes. Rushing off of a knock down is ok but just don’t try to fight her in close once it goes back to neutral. I like to pretend she’s mini zangeif.
On the Zangeif matchup:
It’s definitely winnable and if played flawlessly, is probably even in fei’s favor. It’s just that if you make one mistake vs him and get knocked down, you don’t have many answers to his mix ups. I wonder if back dash on wake up could work well? But anyway, you do have total control over the pace of this match, as long as you stand back.
Anyway I try to never get to that point where I have to worry about his wakes. Geifs st.MP is great but your rekkas have more range than them and will CH them if he’s just throwing them out. Like someone else said, what does it matter if he whiffs st.MP? It’s no threat to you. All you need in this match really is to keep him off you on the ground with cr.HP and safe, distant rekkas to coutner hit his pokes and trying to get a feel for when he likes to walk forward. Once he sees the ground game isn’t an option, st.HK dominates him. Works on the ground too since his hitbox is so big. he can’t even duck it. Neutral jumping is good too if you expect he’s feeling like using green hand, since you can punish it big time and not worry about him whiffing and you not reacting to the throw setup fast enough.
But yeah just don’t get knocked down. I’d say one knock down is worth half your health atleast so yeah geif has lots more room for error but fei has answers to everything geif can do.
i got a very hard time against vega (claw)
i dont know what to do against his wall jumps
i tryed flame kick but most of them whiffs
can someone tell me what to do against it or should i only block it and then punish ??
^^^block and punnish
The thing with cr.hp is that it’s really really slow. Not just the startup but also the recovery takes forever. 30 frames total and for reference, lp rekka is 29 frames total. Also cr.hp just barely outreaches st.mp so if Gief plays smart and baits a cr.hp whiff he can punish with st.lk green hand and it’s over.
I wrote this before but st.mp beats rekka every time and the timing to punish a whiffed st.mp is so tiny it basically comes down to luck.
How does st.MP beat rekkas every time? If you space them from max distance I don’t think geif can even hit you before you punch him. The key is to just stand at max range and rekka as he starts to wobble forward. Most geifs walk back and forth at range trying to get inside. Simply catch him as he moves forward. He doesn’t have an answer to rekkas on the ground. And yes cr.HP is slow but it’s long enough to stay away from anything he does and keeps him out.
I feel you’re reading frame data and not actually playing these matches.
st.mp beats rekkas like Ryu’s cr.mk.
First Stockholm’s grappler began to constantly pwn rekkas with st.mp. Then I found out how hard it is to punish in training mode. When I checked the frames it became clear to me that st.mp is a major issue.
Gief can spam st.mp outside of Fei cr.hp range and he will beat rekkas a majority of the time.
Fei has one good poke to keep Gief out and it is baitable (pretty much everyone can punish a whiffed cr.hp)
The only thing I can think of is to go for rekka chip damage and work from there.
I just don’t get it. Ryu’s cr.MK beats rekkas because it has a low hit box. If you’re doing rekkas from max range, you have an active hit box IN THEIR FACE any time they try to press st.MP. How does it beat it out? Zangeif is standing tall, unlike ryu. I’ve never even had it trade. Are you using LP rekkas or something? Try it from further away with HP rekka.
Yeah bubblan, I don’t understand what you’re talking about…I really got to see some footage of you in action b/c you’re just not making sense.
Thing is, they’ll throw you from time to time. When I see a wall jump, I just try to kick him back in the air. But it still only works 50% of the time.
It sure is confusing against good vega players.
will the st.fierce work against the walljump ?
Obsiously it won’t work if the rekka is in his face but really st.mp is a natural counter poke against rekkas. If rekka is anywhere in st.mp range during it’s active frames st.mp will win and don’t say you can just wait and punish because nobody can get a rekka out after 6 frames on reaction. It may not crouch under like ryu cr.mk but it has the priotity, range and the ludicrous frames to back it up.
I’ve been a lurker on the Fei forums, but I must sincerely thank the OP for this thread. I am a Guile mainer and tried picking up Fei quite some time ago, but I was horrible. I spammed CW and couldn’t pull off his difficult links (At the time I didn’t have too much experience with the combo system, as Guile isn’t very combo dependant).
However I’ve recently returned to Fei and I must say… I love it! It is a nice and refreshing change of pace, as I’ve been trying to find a second character to focus on (tried Ken, Dic, Claw, and Gouken). They all have their pros and cons, but I have been finding Fei to be the most fun.
So, OP - I applaud you!
In regards to Claw, if I see him jump up on the wall I’ll wait to see if it is the claw dive, barcelona attack, or super.
For the Claw Dive I will just block and punish with Rekkas.
For the Barcelona attack I will start focusing and dash to whichever side he springs towards and go to c.short - s.jab - c.jab - f.rekkas. The grab is really difficult to pull off with Vega, so he will more than likely stop going for wall dives after getting punished once or twice. edit* or just go for fierce Rekkas!
For the Super I will just jump back and Round house. (Try never have your back against a wall when he has full meter.)
Speaking of Vega - what’s the easiest and most efficient way to punish his backflip(s)?