I didn’t know that ultra is escapable with backdash but still I think that you need to get lucky with focus if you’re playing against someone who knows better than to use cr.hk/overhead a lot.
Unless you take a wild guess or Chun does a kikouken really close it’s just hopeless to punish with an EX CW. It has really fast recovery and her hitbox is kinda short. At least she don’t have a shoryu to punish the CW.
I still don’t think that 4-6 is bad and Fei has a lot worse than that.
On another note Fei vs Gief is 2-8. Geif’s st.mp is retarded. Fei can only beat it if he stands just outside of range and does a low and it’s impossible to whiff punish because Gief’s hitbox move back so far after. This means that Fei can only damage Gief in three ways: anti air, neutral jump over green hand and stuffing st.mp with cr.hp/cr.mkXXsuper/cr.hk.
Gief Damage Stun Startup Active Recovery Total On Block On Hit
Far MP 90 100 4 2 10 15 +2 +5
Ok so it is possible to whiff punish with rekka but it’s impossible to do on reaction and Gief could just as easily start to punish your rekkas. Focus is too slow to punish an absorbed st.mp and whiff punishing with focus is probably impossible. If anyone has a better answer than cr.mkXXsuper then please let me know.
Edit:I can’t get the frames to look any better than this but this shouldn’t be too hard to read. It may seem like I think that Fei sucks but I really only have issues with three of his matchups which are Gief, Dic and the king (maybe Seth too). Aside from those I think that his matchups are fairly balanced with 4-6/5-5/6-4 against most and 7-3 against the really crappy characters.
Gief isn’t that hard to be honest…Make him whiff the st. MP and do Rekkas…you may or may not catch him BUT the difference here is that your pokes(rekka) actually do CHIP damage and Gief’s st. MP doesn’t. So it’s in your favor…he can stand there all day and throw random pokes but he ain’t gonna get anywhere with that…he’ll either try to close distance with st. HK and grab you with SPD with which you counter with Fei’s cr. MP, MK and cr. HP…or he’ll try whiffing a green hand into SPD on you but just back dash and punish with rekkas if you see him whiff the SPD animation. Once you land a poke of your own to back him off, pressure him with some rekkas to get some chip damage however don’t get too predictable with your rekkas or he’ll counter with lariat. Once he starts trying to counter your rekkas with lariats, this falls into your favor b/c Fei can punish whiffed lariats with rekkas easier. Whether the lariat is whiffed or blocked, you can punish with rekkas or cr. MK into super or cr. HP, etc. Once he learns that he can’t out poke Fei, he’ll have to jump in and that’s when you nail him with EX flame kick…I almost always stay in the crouched position so that I can easily do flame kick whenever I see him jump. If he stays on the ground in front of you, he’ll lose plain and simple…he’ll have to start jumping in and or risk doing green palms to get in but Fei can punish both easily. Overhead kicks work really well too once you’ve trained him to stop throwing out random pokes and b/c most Gief’s always like to crouch(for anti air lariat).
st.mp outpriotize rekkas and if you actually read my post the chance of actually punishing st.mp is minimal and absolutely impossible to do on reaction. Gief can just walk just outside of the range where Fei’s lows will beat st.mp, spam st.mp and actually be at an advantage if you try to counter with rekkas. Also think that this is just one normal I’m talking about.
How can you let one stupid normal beat you? It’s that kind of thinking that doesn’t help you at all. Don’t you let yourself get fixated on one move…learn to adapt. Just think man…at most, he’ll get 60 damage from a st. MP but you’ll get about 120 or whatever the damage is from a rekka. Rekka also has MORE range than St. MP. Which is the better trade? Rekka of course. If you block it, no big deal…try hitting him with cr. MK or back dashing or walking back to gain some distance. Once you anticipate the MP again and see it whiff, quickly do a jab/strong rekka ken at max range…it is punishable with good timing. But let’s say you mistime your rekka and he blocks in time before the rekka lands…even if it’s blocked, you still get chip damage plus your safe and your in poke range…HE DOESN’T get chip damage and it’s not st. MP makes him get any closer to you so really, you’re at advantage. Like I said, don’t just stand there and be predictable with it. If he walks outside of you and spams st. MP, how is he being at an advantage? He’s not hitting you is he? He’s hitting air so let him spam all he wants…he has to come close to you to do damage so he isn’t doing himself any favors by staying outside of his range. Plus he puts you at the perfect range to counter with rekka and be safe.
*It does 90 damage
*It’s almost as fast as a jab
*The only way for Fei to beat it is to do a low poke at the same time and just outside of Gief st.mp range which is impossible to do on reaction
*To punish it with a rekka you need to do just as it’s active frames dissappear which happens after 6 frames.
From SRK wiki
S.MP (Stand Strong)
One of the best normals in the entire game. At a 4 frame startup with 90 damage and a +2 on block, nothing is bad about this move. It reaches crazy far and can even combo into itself in the right distances. Use w/ Stand Jab in working your way in. It’s also great for stuffing moves in the Sagat matchup.
Just to show he has other good moves.
S.LK (Stand Short)
Pretty much the exact same Frame Data as stand strong, with a little further hitbox and it hits lower. This is also Gief’s best canceled move. From far away you fish for a hit buffered into green hand. It also works great at the end of any of his combos.
Edit: Next time I get the chance I’ll check if st.mp can punish lp.rekka. It’s fast enough and the range could be enough.
True it’s probably one of the best normals in the game but it isn’t invincible like how you’re making it to be. I’ve had several Giefs try spamming st. and cr. jabs and st. MP on me but instead they’d eat Rekka Kens for doing it. He thought it was just a fluke on my part and tried doing again and AGAIN I countered with rekkas…soon he started to realize that he couldn’t beat me by doing that and started to jump in. You have to be patient and spot when he’s vulnerable. Like you said, St. MP doesn’t have active frames throughout…he does have vulnerable frames and this is when you try to rekka BUT only when you’re in range. You gotta really pay attention to your range and be patient in this matchup.
st.mp is a great move for gief, but look how high it hits.
crouch fierce him, stand and wait, crouch fierce him, stand and wait. eventually he will be forced to either
jump-easily beaten by a standing roundouse
or phsycic ex green hand- regular green hand is stuffed by cr.fierce, and even ex green hand is a gamble because of the huge disadvantage on block, so a wrong guess means you bnb rekka him back across the screen
if he actually does get in, then he can cause major problems, but i dont think you should fear him in neutral situations. matchup is 6-4 gief at worst.
also, no way the dictator match is nearly as bad as sagat.
HNIC Mike
crouch fierce him, stand and wait, crouch fierce him, stand and wait. eventually he will be forced to either
yeah feis lows will beat st.mp if they’re done at the same time but the margin is just so small and gief can start mixing it with other normals. again its impossible to punish it on any sort of reaction ever. 15 frames total
properly spaced, crouch fierce snuffs all giefs normals. his quicker ones hit too high, and the ones with a decent chance at trading all have a longer startup time than the crFP. gief is a little easier to zone with normals because of the speed disparity between characters
im not going crazy here saying that the match is in fei’s favor or anything, because it demands semi flawless play, and gief has much more room for error. im just saying 8-2 is a little harsh.
the matchup that i think we are going to really see start to dive is the one with honda. i can see that one going back to the ST days
I think HNIC Mike’s strategy for Gief is pretty spot on. Crouching fierce and the proper AA can literally be all you need in some situations. Obviously if the player is really good you will have to get trickier at times, and true enough that the margin for error is extremely high.
If you can stay sharp and on the look out for the green hand and block it, you can just throw him away or EX flame kick his pants off. 8-2 is most definitely not the right match up ratio.
I think big reason this fight is in Gief’s favor is because once we get knocked down, the mix up begins. I tend to get out of it by doing a wake up neutral j.HK , but it’s tough.
Honda isn’t that bad but you’re probably right about him having the advantage. At least headbutt sucks.
I could reverse all the arguments you’ve used against me on your cr.hp theory:wonder: From what I read about Gief’s st.lk it would probably destroy Fei cr.hp spam.
I find Honda to be extremely easy for Fei…aside that he hits hard and can take a beating, Fei can counter everything he has. If he tries to walk up and do st. HK(which is a low) or Oichi throw, just do MK CW to counter. Even if he blocks your CW, he can’t really do anything to punish you b/c his normals are too slow. If he jumps, HK Flame kick(EX flame kick too). If he headbutts, you block and punish with Rekkas. Really what else can he do other than stay back? Usually Honda’s will try to build meter by doing whiffed Oichi throws and whiffed LP headbutts…once you walk up within rekka range, he won’t be able to do any of these without getting punished…whiffed oichi throw means he eats a rekka ken. Whiffed LP Headbutt means he eats a cr. HP. Now the only thing he can do is jump neutral HP or jump at you but flame kick will make him scared. What’s left? Sumo body dive you say? Focus that crap or if he misses you on the way down, rekka his big butt!!! Cross him up and do mix ups… make him do sumo dives to escape your cross ups and punish with rekkas.
You can’t base matchup strategies on the Honda player being a total scrub =)
Poking is pretty even as far as normals go but Fei has the longest poke with rekkas so he has a slight advantage here. Honda has insanely good pressure with HP slaps (just doing theory fighter here but it’s +6 on block, keeps Honda close and does a ton of chip damage), Oicho is a great throw as it keeps the pressure going. Honda has more life but Fei’s combos are stronger so it’s ok. As I’ve described it now it seems pretty even but Honda has random BS on his side so I’d say the matchup is 4.5-5.5 in Hondas favour. This is the only matchup where EX rekkas are useful as they can punish EX headbutts.
On the contrary, I’ve fought some really good Hondas. I’m talking about Hondas who have 30k GP or higher. Unless you’re just simply walking into HP Slaps, it isn’t really too bad…he needs to jump in or walk in close enough to use it but since you have rekka and flame kick, it makes it difficult for him to use it effectively. CW beats most if not all Honda’s pokes…not to mention Fei also has rekkas. Oicho is extremely punishable if he misses…CW goes right through as well. The only thing you have to really watch out for is auto track EX Headbutts when you cross him up but I’ve yet to fight a Honda who can use it consistantly. I’d say it’s 6-4 in favor of Fei.
I just have to say this is an amazing job by xS A M U R A Ix. I just picked up Fei Long last week, and the use of capitalization, punctuation, and paragraphs is a godsend compared to the some of the other longer posts on this board. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and insights from your Fei Long experiences.
I don’t own SF4 and I’ve never played online so I have no idea how good 30k GP is =)
So rekkas and flame kick is the answer to st.lp,HP slaps and CW < all?
MK CW did not getter when HK CW was nerfed. It’s a shitty gimmick which is easy to counter from a distance, has no damage potential, crappy positioning after and weird invul at the start which only avoids throws consistently.
I still lost to Honda from time to time. Mostly because I got caught in his Oichi and body slam mix up. I still can’t do the FA soon enough to beat him.
I guess I have to keep practicing.
the thing about a good honda is that there will be no random headbutts to punnish. good players know how to block and be patient, so crossups galore isnt really a viable strategy. fei’s throw range is terrible, so trying to tick into a throw will get you ochio’ed, not to mention good players can tech. fei and honda really need to be at about the same distance from their opponent to be effective.
jab headbutts are safe, and jab rekkas are safe, and they both cover the same length of the screen. the thing is, if done at the same time, headbutt wins. btw headbutt is armor break.
i actually think honda has an advantage in footsies. standing roundhouse is faster than crouching fierce, but it is an even trade in damage, tho honda has 150 more life, so trading isnt the best idea. if you get closer to him, he can throw out cr.jabs buffered into handslaps. jabs are slow and they dont have the best hitbox, but if 1 lands he can take off 300dmg, and like 500+ if he has super. not too bad for landing a jab.
we all know neutral jumping on fei does a lot to take away fei’s options, and honda just happens to have one of the best neutral jump attacks in the game. neutral jump fierce dominates CW in every way imagineable.
i think once honda players really learn the matchup, we will be in trouble