That’s cool.
Honestly, unless your opponents jumping in from miles away, you really can’t do a lot about it. If you backdash, most high-grade players are churning option selects on your ass to stop you doing that (Seriously, play enough shotos and you learn to just stand there and block right. Since they have the EASIEST OS’s in the game, so you’re gonna be on the end of that very very often). If they’re jumping in like an idiot, sure you can TRY to AA with the little crap AA’s that Vega has, or you can risk a trade on an ST and try to blow an ultra or EX FBA off it. But you’re putting yourself at unnecessary risk.
But we’re not really aiming to teach you to play against people online who jump more than Mario.
If you can read a close jump in, you can instant j.MP. It’s decent but it’s not going to be the be all end all of your issue.
It really is just safer to stand and block.
I mean, do you sit there stabbing buttons hoping to bust through a block string, or do you wait and study their habits?
Hell, my aim when playing is to STOP people getting off the floor. If you manage a decent footsie game, you’d be surprised at how much st.HK STOPS people from jumping because it catches them on their jump startup and resets them back to the ground.
Maybe I just treat Vega too much like Bison, but it does actually work.
Blocking is absolutely fundamental as a character with no solid AA or reversal. So if you can’t block, and it urks you THAT much, go and play a character who can AA at practically any distance and be done with it.
I mean, you can try, on crossups to auto correct a scarlet terror. It isn’t actually that difficult, but most people do crossups so deep that you’re getting stuffed anyway.
He has options but none of them are particulary good. So yeah, just sitting there and blocking is the best that he has.
And above all. DO.NOT.BACKFLIP.
I may not actually play FGs anymore, but I can still remember most-everything that I was taught and learned.
also… anything done after step kick is unsafe, so it’s not an uninterruptable block string that can be repeated and keep you in hot water.
Some would see street fighter like a strategy game. If you pick a defensive options it will beat a couple of offensive options, the reverse is also true. Just like an ultra fast chess-game, one choice beats another, and you can OS your defense as well a OS attacks.
Players adapt themselves, and as soon as they see you’re of the blocking type they will attempt to throw you.
Then the key thing is not to keep blocking or to keep escaping, but how to wisely vary your defense. When to just block and when/how to escape. You can’t rely only on one defensive option, even as good as just block, against skilled opponents. But you can OS your defense, after a little observation time :
— Block then backdash beats lights an throw
— Block then KKK flip beats throws/command throws and slow attacks (like DPs). It’s exceptional against FADC command throw/DP mix-ups.
— Block then jump beat tick-throws and sweeps
— Block then FADC beats slow normals & projectile strings
— Block then ST beats tick-throws, walk grabs and focuses
— Block then keep blocking beats the old “invincible attack at frame-disadvantage” trick
So Claw has defensive options, and you can adjust your defense to the opponent’s style. The only thing being that while figuring out what opponent is doing, just block is less damaging than pressing buttons against most opponents (obviously not against grapplers).
Obviously if you can’t guess right everytime. Unless you can completely avoid the mix-up, and that’s where solid anti-air are importants. Claw can anti-air (or rather air to air) very decently while he’s not knocked down. Same thing here :
— LK-ST ^^ EX-ST beats low priority jump-ins (it’s perfect against shoto’s jHK from close to mid range).
— jHP beats low to mid priority jumps, provided they hit low rather than at mid height… or if opponent ends slightly under you (typically against a shotos jHK when you do not have charge)
— jMP beats high priority jump ins, provided they hit low or mid, and if opponent is at the same height than yours (for example against Ryu’s jMP)
— jLP and njMP beat high priority jump ins, provided they are above you (for example against Claw’s FBA, if he’s already above you when reacting)
— Airgrab beats just anything being under you at the moment of the hit (foreseen jump)
So you have tools here too. Picking them wisely and react fast enough to use them is the difficulty.
Not a lot of characters. And Claw is one of those whose hitboxes are most away from the hurtboxes, so he’s not at disadvantage in the air.
Still, it’s one of the reasons why cHP, ST and sHK should NOT be used against high priority jump-ins. 'Cause it would just plain lose, just as you say. =)
It’s not. If a Seth player eats 3 aa jHP in a row, he will stop jumping in, or at least think twice about it. Shotos are just the same, except they will switch to higher priority jump ins, like Ryu’s jMP or Ken’s air tatsu. Then you can adapt back by switching to jMP or jLP, and that will allow you to focus on ground game as you’ve got frame-advantage at each air reset you will get.
It’s what I’m trying to do at the moment. One of the good things about air-to-air defense is that you do not have to think about your charge. You see a jump in ? Just jump too, then selecting between jHP, jMP or airgrab should do it 95% of the time.
That’s why you have jMP or jLP. =)
Yes; but I think that we all agree about blocking being the only option at wake-up. But if you play well, chances are that you won’t be knocked down all match long. ^^
Plus there is one kind of frame trap that block won’t beat, that being endless pressure strings (Guy’s or Gouken’s) or advancing frame traps (Cody’s or Sakura’s) :
— If cornered, gouken can just spam his lights/medium punches into hadokens, and he would be positive on block even at point blank (where he isn’t). Just block = chipped to the death or letting him setting up nasty flips setups. But you can’t press buttons either, you-re frame-trapped. You have to focus or to EX-RCF, only way out.
— Sakura’s sLP/cLP into LK-Arcing kick => +0 point blank, and probably more from any farther. So you’re frame-trapped and since that moves her closer to you everytime you can just block and get thrown/cornered then chipped to death… or attempt to escape.
So if blocking (thus learning not to press buttons) is indeed necessary, it is only as a mean to select between escaping options. And « just block » is only one of those : if you do not vary, you’ll get nailed sooner or later. =)
Sent from my Ol’ PC using a phone jack and a cable.
Just another reason Capcom made Vega hard as **** to learn. No decent anti-air. I just played a match where a player continued to jump in on me like a monkey. And of course I got my ass handed to me because all I could do was…block…
I swear, Vega needs SOMETHING to stop jump-ins. It’s become ridiculous at this point.
Ehhhhh, this post was about ways to deal with a certain situation(s), not “Why is blocking good?” I never once said blocking was bad. “Just block” IS bad. But ehhhhh.
TriasNT knows what’s up.
It part of Claw’s design to lack of anti-airs, otherwise he would just be broken.
I believe we’ve all already shared a lot of solutions in this thread, just above and since the beginning. One popular opinion being « if you haven’t grounded anti-airs, just air to air instead ». I let you read, I believe there are already some massive posts dealing with the problem. You can also inspire yourself of BrokkenG’s play, he’s quite good at anti-airing. ElCubanoloco also uses a lot of those. =)
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[details=Spoiler]That’s it, I’m oldening : I’m repeating things I already said. Rambling powaaa ! X_X
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Thx man. 
^^ But how do you stop them form jumping in when they are really close to you? Like, when they do cross ups?
You stop them leaving the floor. st.HK does that well. Frame trapping people stops it also, since those 4 frames of jumping mean a lot now when you can’t jump away from pressure at all.
Also the whole jump jump jump thing is only really scary online under shitty lag. Because you can read that stuff a mile off and nj.HK/j.MP/Air throw that crap.
IE, What I like to call "Sit your ass back down, we’re not playing Mario here."
It’s not that scary offline if you’re good at reacting.
As a Vega player, you always need to anticipate a jump in. ALWAYS. As soon as you see your opponent leave the ground, you need to do something about it. jump back mp is a popular option.
By staying calm.
It can be frustrating. But you must remain beautiful by being calm (blocking) and graceful (well placed jump back normal, Neutral Jump normal, and airthrow).
Think more of enduring rather than avoiding. This is a common mistake i make both with Fuerte and Vega. Don’t forget about back dash
If you read the cross-up, then you can forward dash under it, slide under it or PPP flip it. Dash is the best option against players who repeatidly try to cross you up.
If you see it later, only option is to block. And if you-re waking up only consistent option is also to block, with sparingly used PPP flips as an alternative. Lots of character have this in common with Claw, cross-up should be blocked most of the time. =)
And just as Rugalitarian suggest, you must be watchful for jumps, 'cause air-to-air techniques have the weakness of being slow. That is the difficult part => react early, but not jumping in preventively.
And if you want your enemy to stay grounded, nothing better than a good frame-trap (cLP cLP, cMK cMP, etc.), as Francys Pai said. =)
Yep. And remember to lose beautifully too and to send graceful hatemails as well. It’s part of the learning process. ^^
OK, One last question. How do you stop Rufus’s dive kicks and Akuma’s one move where he cannonballs straight towards you? Sorry, I don’t know what it’s called.
I don’t really like to give “block” as an answer, as it is already obvious that everything can be blocked. But in these two situations you mentioned, you reall have only “blocking” and no other option.
Situationally st.mp, st.lp and st.lk stops dive kicks without trade. But it is a real gamble.
Also I’m surprised to see noone mentioned ST in a cross-up thread.
When you charge db, and then the opponent cross-ups you, you don’t lose the charge for a split second and if you do the ST quickly you can anti-air the cross-up. But the tricky part is you will not auto-correct, you wil manually correct the move. Meaning: You are charging db. The opponent jumped over you, and you will press B+kick, not F+kick. Because back has now become forward as the opponent is on your other side.
You can use the same thing to U2 cross-ups and cross unders.
Ok a couple things here…
For Rufus, (and throw in Cammy, Yun, and Yang while we at it) you have a few options for dive kick. The key is to block in the beginning and observe your opponent. Find the pattern. Take the throw in the beginning because throw damage is far less than combo damage, gives less meter to opponent and forces the opponent jumping in to take a risk or give up momentum. You have to take advantage of this. But if you’re not moving around or paying attention to the opponent then you might as well just put the stick down and give up. if you know a dive kick is coming you can cHP, sHK, Focus Backdash, backdash, Focus, sLP, sMP, sLK (as mentioned above), jump back normal (HK MP or HP), and block are all viable options. All come with a risk, though. Which is why you need to pay attention to the opponent to be able to make a good read and react appropriately. Taking damage is bad, but if taking damage gets you critical info, or plants a seed into the opponent’s mind to where they think you’re going to react a certain way, then it’s not wasted damage. If you dont learn anything from the damage taken then it’s the worst possible situation.
ST is an option, but it’s not a viable one. Any situation where ST hits a jump in is a situation where the opponent is not spacing you properly or simply not pressing the button in time to land an aerial attack on you. Neither of which are something you should count on. If you feel compelled to use ST on a jump in then you need to use EX ST unless the opponent is a complete moron.
U2 is a great option but you’ll get at most 2 of those a round. After you use it the threat of it is gone and you can expect many many more jump ins as well.
But to reiterate from an earlier post… chances are that if someone is coming in here with problems dealing with jump ins then they probably arent experienced enough to know that blocking is the most reliable and safe thing they can do. And as obvious as it is, I still see a shitload of people not doing the obvious. So until the person that is asking about what to do can show me that they actually choose to block, then I’m going to assume that they are not blocking and instead, are trying their damnest to get ST to connect, or backflip to safety. So my first response will be to block. Especially since there’s like a couple dozen threads and probably a hundred or so posts on the subject that’s been discussed over the last 3+ years
Already answered, you can use :
— bjHP/bjMP
— and occasionnally sLP or sMP, but as GI says those last ones are a real gamble.
— Or block if you’re too late. It is important for you to understand you can counter only if you’re early and fast reacted, at the difference of grounded aa which would work when triggered way later.
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Same here, ST works only on low priority jump ins, and when opponent isn’t already on you 'cause it has no invincibility and hits low at startup : if a jump in hitbox is colliding with your hurtbox during ST startup, ST will always be beaten. So unless you’re an expert, I wouldn’t use it against cross-ups… and personnally I would avoid it at wake-up as well.
One of the things it’s good to realize about ST, it’s that it’s made to beat throws much more than as an aa. A non invincible anti-air whose hitbox would be so much inside and at the botton of the hurtbox could only be terrible. Even perfectly timed (hitting when Claw has his feet at the top of him), it would still be beaten by high priority jump ins. That is because the hitbox is only within Claw’s legs, and does not covers your feet : you can still be hit in the feet, and straight beaten. It’s a shitty reversal, you have to deal with it : you’ve got options until knocked down, but if you’re waking up wisdom is to block. =)
And this is pretty much what Vegaman and I have been trying to peddle in our posts since the beginning. But seeing as the OP is so flustered about it, I think it’s safe to assume that their blocking skills aren’t what they’re supposed to be as a Vega player.
We’re not elitist for saying these things, we’re just basically stating the obvious. I mean, this topic has been discussed thousands of times and has the same out come. It REALLY isn’t hard to do a little digging, it’s been discussed so often.
In laymans terms, I’m not a fan of new threads being made for common problems when they’ve been discussed so much, that the search function will find it, or they just have to post in the general Q&A thread. We get tired of repeating ourselves because of other people’s laziness.
There is a slight but important difference between our positions. We agree that blocking is the only option at wake-up. But wake-up situations put aside, blocking becomes weak 'cause landing a blocked jump still allows the opponent to land a string with maximum mix-up options, forcing you to guess. And « just block » becomes a gamble that your opponent won’t go for the extremely popular tick throw… which he will do endlessly if he is of the hitconfirming type, builds meter, or has advancing strings (Dan, Cody, Sakura, etc.) .
That’s why air-to-air methods are crucial, and I’ve not included ST in those. I understand that teaching newbies not to press buttons is important, but saying « just block » without precisions looks just like bondage to me. =)
Which is why I made further posts, but I forgot, no one reads the posts of a scrub anymore
Blocking is Vega’s safest option at beginner level, because it’s also the most vital skill to learn because obviously should you choose to change character, it will carry with you.
You do have the air to air options and fuck this, I’m not even going to repeat myself, my posts with all of this are like, 5 posts up this page.
Let me go off the rails just a little here in regard of ST as AA.
I agree with most being said by pai,vegaman and trias here, but im kind of shocked by the collective disregard of ST as a general AA and the TOTAL disregard of lk.ST only because its 3 frames slower to start up is disheartening. lk.ST is maybe the most underrated move of vega its angle is great for enough character’s effective jump ranges. In fact, you would be wiser to use lk.st above hk.st against alot of effective jumpranges.
Let me give an example regarding Sakura:
I was watching Chris King vs ChrisG at CEO and he was using backdashes and s.hk/backjump to deal with ChrisG abusing air tatsu entrance.
ChrisG was not demotivated enough to jump and start trying to ground battle, he either won space, got in if King blocked or ate 40 or 70 damage depending on wich hit of s.hk connected.
When using crouching pokes to stop her advance and she jumps lk.ST eats sakura alive! When she jump at you from a distance with tatsu, lk.ST will also own her.
When you then opt to use EX ST after that lk.ST you will have done 210 damage for everytime she tries. (im not even going into stun difference)
Trust me, its way more demoralizing for a sakura player to eat 200~420 damage for 2 jump ins instead of eating 80~140 for 2 jump ins using s.hk AA.
ChrisG might have stopped relying on jumps as much and vega wins the ground battle, it results in a significantly easier match.
hk.ST and EX.ST, while superior in startup frames (and hitbox in case of EX) have a shitty angle for a sakura jumping in on her effective jumprange.
What happens mostly is that she moves forward from above and vega moves forward from below.
Sakura’s jumps and moves will bypass vega’s feet coming up and hit vega in his upper legs or stomach unless your really early!
This means you get beaten and when you get beaten you eat damage and are left guessing what to do on your air reset landing, because she will land way before you.
With lk.ST she can’t dodge the feet, because the angle is such that you typicly hit lk.st with vega already being closer to upside down in his flip and thus she can not really beat the move, she can only trade if she has a downward hitting hitbox already out there when your feet reach to meet her.
If she opted air tatsu or hk/mk, she does not bypass vega and cannot beat vega’s lk.ST hitbox, since those have hitboxes that reach to her sides.
Please do not write lk.ST off because it has 7 start up frames, ST is (mostly) not used for reversal from wake up or stopping someone who is already far in his jump descent with his moves sticking out, that is DP. ST is a move you do when you see them heading up into the air to avoid your pokes, in wich 4 or 7 frames does not make that much of a difference!
hk and lk.st are both good AA when used right.
mk.ST i find to hard to judge its proper angle use above hk.
EX.ST i mostly only use as a naked AA when i know that im late, but i think i can still make it trade or luckily beat an opponent with the much bigger hitbox.
Seriously , dont write ST off!! Yes, it does horrible against some characters, but others can be shut down and demotivated out of their air game… when they are demotivated to go into the air, vega shines brightest.