I can see the brook PCB as an alternative to Dual-modding. The Hori PCB is not very Dual-mod friendly.
You have to install diodes on each input.
This seems like a fun project to do in the future although I’m sure I would need a bit of help to actually do it. Thinking about these circuits is driving me nuts in a good way. If I wanted to learn more about circuits etc… where would I begin? Would that be something like an EE?
I have no idea ;( Logic tester and oscilloscope is pretty expensive bundle just to test PCBs for lag. Like I wrote earlier, if people wanted to crowdfund that’s one thing, but IMO, that kind of cost isn’t worth it for a stand alone test to share some info most people don’t care about.
The subject is not to see the frame, we talk about feeling.
The face to face pcb is to try to understand …
People want to know the lag before buying is legitimate.
It’s like how much a car consumes, what is the remanence of the screen or how much did the decibel headphones.
One frame under it to better anti-air, better confirm and better punish.
In similar situations , real situation in game , many players including myself have a higher rate of success with the Hori VX SA than other … it’s a fact.
That said now I play with my VLX on PS4.
That statement, what you typed is very hard to read and understand. I take it you are using Google translate to write that message.
This “feeling” thing is garbage, if you want to do this scientifically an get real facts, feelings have no place.
Also “many players including myself have a higher rate of success with the Hori VX SA than other” is not a fact.
Personal anecdotes going off of a gut feelings is not science and not a fact.
Did you forget Jansen’s latest product? 
Makes installing the Brook UFB on the VLX easy. ^^
Yeah that’s because Sol’s 5K has a close distance knee hit at 3f and an extended foot hitbox at 5f. If you put Sols at a specific distance, what ends up happening is that the faster Sol’s knee will miss, but his hurtbox extends enough for the slower Sol’s knee to counterhit that before his foot extends to trade. You want to do it upclose if you’re doing it with Sol’s 5K. Some other single hit move is completely fine. Sol’s far Slash could work, Ky 5K should do it, Faust 5P/5K should be OK as well. It’s just a peculiarity of the way Sol’s 5K works.
In that one specific case you’ll end up winning. 99% of the time the slower character would lose.
That’s a good bit more specific than what can be reasonably said about the results, isn’t it? They’re definitely “stick on a platform” specific and possibly “stick in a game on a platform” specific, but the rest doesn’t have to be assumed.
I’m inclined to believe they would. I mean, people are reporting their own experiences with sticks, and people are spamming disagrees and lols as if they knew the experience of others better than those others do. People are attached to the oscilloscope measurement as somehow superior than Teyah’s when they don’t even measure the same thing, and aren’t fit for the same purpose. The oscilloscope/raw response time measurement gathers too little data to say about a real world scenario, while Teyah’s test lumps too much data into one - it tells the real world performance of “I’m playing with Stick X on Console Y”, but doesn’t really say what causes the lag - if there’s a big disparity between the two results, chances are a firmware update would do wonders.
Said critics also evidently don’t understand why the repetition allows Teyah to do the measurements he does. We have a guy here who does stats for a living and the contradictors disagree when he confirms the method is valid. All their behavior thus far just feels like the thing they’re interested in is getting others to think the way they do, that lag doesn’t matter, can’t be felt, doesn’t impact things and that the measurements done are, a priori, wrong.
There definitely are people who overblow the impact of especially minor amounts of lag to high heaven, but the cure to that is education, not smothering discussion for people who actually have a sense of proportion.
I hope I could be of assistance.
Because the old 360+ did lag horribly on 360 according to Teyah’s measurements? That’s the whole point of taking the console into the equation: It tests delay in a real world scenario of playing a game. The oscilloscope test tells us how fast a board can turn a press into a signal, but that’s no use if it, say, requests a pollrate of “once a year”. We can’t know. Knowing the raw speed of the PCB is useful. Knowing its performance on a console is useful. Knowing that they differ a lot is useful because it helps isolate a cause for the experienced lag vs. what the board should be capable of.
Problem is you guys refuse to take personal experience into account, refuse to believe that the console-inclusive measurement is actually useful (and, for a person buying a product, more relevant).
Hit-confirming piano is very lag-sensitive.
Is it that hard to understand?
He just says that it’s normal to ask for the specifications of a product before buying it, arcade sticks are no exception and input lag is part of the specs.
He managed to hitconfirm thanks to his VX SA which has the lowest possible input lag on Xbox360, and knowing its input lag helped him understand why he succeeded so much better with this stick than with other sticks.
Concerning the VLX part, I actually don’t see the point either. Or he means that although he wants the stick with best input lag, he actually plays with the worst possible stick right now.
I agree that you can’t rely on people talking about their feelings (sometimes in contradiction with evaluation metrics that can be quantified) about a product. Just measure what can be measured.
Edit: Nevermind, I see now that all Qanba sticks except the original Q4 RAF use the same PCB. I see lag results for the Qanba Q4 RAF Ice Blue but not the Ice Red…I imagine it’s safe to assume that the PCB in these two sticks is the same? Very disheartening that this stick is so poorly rated.
Thank you for the details of his move. I was thinking something like that was happening, but wanted to know for sure before I continued with any more testing.
This scenario does support evidence for one pcb having more relative lag than the other pcb. However, this also opens a new can of worms. If there is one scenario where a “slower” pcb wins out then there could be other scenarios that we don’t know about were it can be advantageous to be “slower”.
Also, even as unlikely as this case is, its likeliness is on par with the other scenario of two players being right next to each other and pressing the button physically at the exact same time for the “faster” pcb to win out. I know the purpose of the testing is to try to find the relative lag, but this has been an interesting unexpected discovery.
Thats what the testing procedure is built on. Teyah draws his results from that procedure. We are relying on that procedure to accurately test relative lag. We assume its the best method and that there isn’t any hidden traps in that.
A second experiment should be done with the players. One where they play on an arcade stick that remains the same except for the pcb which gets swapped out. Without that done, people’s reporting on their own experiences is anecdotal. There’s confirmation bias plus other factors that could affect things. I’m not totally disregarding their experiences, but its not exactly scientific. If we are to take in account of the people saying they can feel the difference then we have to give equal credit to the haters who say they feel there isn’t a difference.
I do agree that both sides are a bit extreme and that there should be more educated discussion on the matter.
Yes, you have. Thank you.
Anyone have any idea whether the smaller button PCB hub on the first Madcatz TE adds any lag on its own, separate from the main PCB?
I’ve always wanted a reason to get an oscilloscope, perhaps now is the time to get one. I’ll have quite the selection of sticks to test very soon. Several versions of MCZ (Trying to get one of every frame) and Hori. A Qanba, Brook (FB and Adapter), and PS360+ (Hopefully both versions). Sadly, no TE2+ yet. Gotta see which one of those becomes the “rare” one.
Absolutely not.
Average of 6 ms vs 3 ms is lagging horribly? That’s the scientific, hard data test Undamned did. You guys didn’t want to hear it because Teyah tested a single game that “proved” the board was laggy and it fed into your guy’s confirmation biases. PS360+ doesn’t have a poll rate of once a year, what’s wrong with you?
Anything after the board is not the fault of the PCB. If the chain of events has problems, that is not on the PCB, but on the numerous uncontrolled variations, from the USB, the software drivers, and the game itself. Does it change from game to game? Does each console have a different manufacturer of USB chips from hardware revision to hardware revision? Yes, no? How about when games have vsync locked frame rates vs when they don’t? Every time you get a torn frame of video, that’s a cut window for input polling. I’ve noted this TIME AND TIME AGAIN.
This is what we mean when we want scientific data, because this test is not scientific. It’s relative, down to a single use situation, and very possible it’s not even applicable to all games on the platforms tested. You think this is important, but when you have customers complaining about laggy boards that they were perfectly happy with before, customers who want to gut a perfectly good stick, all because of an unscientific test, then maybe your point of view would change.
How many happy PS360+ customers were there prior to this? No one noticed anything wrong, there weren’t threads talking about “OMG, I can feel the board lagging!!” no, these things sold out every time they had a restock. Every. Fucking. Time. Now you tell me, where was all the uproar over people feeling the lag back then? How about you dig up threads about it and prove it was the norm? Oh, you can’t, because it didn’t happen? Yeah… that’s about how relevant your anecdotal evidence is, because all it does is feed a confirmation bias and people LOVE looking for excuses as to why they lose. You know why anecdotal evidence isn’t scientific? This is why. Don’t bitch about us taking into account personal experiences when this was not an issue until an unscientific test came out and gave people excuses to lay blame on.
Console inclusive measurements MIGHT be useful, but it has to have a wide range of testing, from game to game, from console revision to console revision, and the results need to specify exactly that. No, this wasn’t how it was done, and the results were listed as entirely the fault of the PCB.
No thank you.
I bet if I told people that Blue LEDs makes sticks lag worst and Red LEDs reduce lag, you see people stock up on Red LEDs.
The Fighting Edge has both colors. I guess Hori considers it a performance mod. Execute too fast, switch to blue to slow things down. Too slow? Try the red turbo mode!
this is only tangentially related, but interesting. There’s a good analysis 1/3 of the page down about why some instrumentalists/vocalists are so sensitive to audio latency and others are not. I suspect that in some way there are similar processes at work in this very thread!
The idea that people can feel 1F of lag has been met with derision in this thread. It’s an interesting situation, since my background is in classical music performance. I think if you told a group of competent musicians “~20ms of latency is not detectable” they would think you were daft, and probably would not be eager to play in a music ensemble with you. You would be “that guy” who can’t play in time. We’ve all met “that guy” from time to time.
Basically what I’m saying is “Moonchilde and Darksakul cannot be in my saxophone quartet.” sorry guys. 
You do realize those tiny bits of latency between people when playing in ensembles is what makes live music so harmonious to human ears? Why do you think so many professional DAWs have scripts to “humanize” sampled instruments? Because when things are played exact, down to the millisecond, in perfect time, it sounds unnatural to humans. Because humans are used to hearing live music sound a certain way, when every human musician is a little off tune from the other, and a little off time from each other. This is literally what humanizing scripts do for making a mock up using samples more “realistic.” Throw on top of that, round robin scripts because humans never hit a string or a note the exact same way, the same time, every time… As a classically trained musician, you should know this already. You should literally hear it when you play with other musicians.
I’ll quote myself again:
Where are the lag threads prior to this data coming out? If you can find them, I’d be interested to see them.
We were doing so well in this thread, almost getting scientific
I would also like to point out, sound is MUCH slower than light. Sound, since it’s slower, is more perceivable to bits of delay. For example, we can have a display 20 ft from us, but because of how fast light is, it still looks instant to us. Put speakers 20 feet away, and they’ll have a bit of delay. However, millions of humans watch movies, and sit in the back seats, and don’t complain about lag. Consider theaters have surround setups, with a center channel and front speakers, mid, and back speakers, wouldn’t people who watch movies notice all that desync from the light hitting the screen? Considering every foot of distance is 5 ms in delay, and we’re talking being 100 ft from the screen, you’d think people would be up in arms that the lips don’t sync to the dialogue perfectly because light travels faster than sound, and the sound is off sync…
But nope. That doesn’t happen.
Now I’ll stress the point that I’ve also made before, that up to a point lag isn’t noticeable. That doesn’t mean you can’t not feel it. Once you hit 3 frames (34 ms to 50 ms) it’s something you can feel and notice to a degree, but brains adapt and it becomes “normal” within a short span of time. I notice it during certain actions, but not all actions. Mouse movement, character jumps, those are easier to see it on. Now, once you start hitting 70+ ms, you not only feel it, but see it, too. At certain ranges, there is no adjusting and it’s simply shit at a certain point.
Audio is a different beast. It’s literally comparing apples and oranges. For example, it’s easy for a human to notice 5 ms of delay from an identical audio stream to itself, it goes from sounding like a single audio stream, to sounding like 2 audio streams. This is actually an effect people use to make mono sound stereo or to make a single source sound like multiple sources. The more delay you add from one to the other, the more distinguishable the second stream sounds. When adding panning, you can create a stereo sound from a single source. Actually, the emulator puNES does this to make a nice stereo effect for NES music. I think there are hardware stereo mods that do exactly this as well. If you want, you can test this yourself. Get Audacity, create a sine wave at 440 hz, then make it a stereo track. Then, take the right channel, and delay it by a few ms, and play it back. It will sound completely different. We notice this easily because we have a constant to hear and then have the delayed material right up against it.
Video is different in this regard. Light is much faster, so when we put two displays up only a few ms apart from each other we can’t really tell. But, like audio, as you start to add delay from one to the other, it becomes more apparent there is a delay. Since video is faster, it’s harder to see the difference until the sources are farther apart, unlike audio which can have shorter amounts of delay and be perceivable. At least I think so. If someone who is a physicist wants to tell me I’m wrong on this, I’m all ears.
Would also like to note, that audio equipment and setups are totally different from gaming. 5 ms from the touch of a keyboard to getting a sound out of a PC is literally just that. 5 ms. There is no input and then rendering a video image, with lots of post processing and shit like that going on. Arcade games have about 66 ms from when you press a button to when you get feedback on the screen, + start up frames of moves. No one ever complained back then that their arcade experiences were laggy. That’s far more than 20 ms from when you press a key on a keyboard to hearing the sound come out.
With instruments, I think it’s easier to notice lag, because you have a constant (the actual instrument itself) and then the recording being delayed or the audio being processed. For example, Rock Smith has a real guitar that has real physical and audible feedback. Yet, what you hear come from your speakers is delayed a bit, probably upwards of 40 ms or so, but you already heard your guitar sound… Again, this is back to having a constant (the guitar) and the delay (the game processing distortion) so it makes it easier to pick out.
Just some thoughts, especially since I really like video and audio subjects.