I think it would be really nice to do a lag test of whatever people use most commonly for padhacks. That and the razer atrox would be really beneficial.
awesome thx. Tbh i dont have any problem with this list. Actually like i´ve said with my ps360+ i havent had any problems besides the random simultaneous inputs issue (like doing a focus and getting just a MK or even nothing at all).
I hope the last firmware makes a difference lol
That’s the problem a lot of people are having. I’ll know tomorrow if I have that problem. If I do and they don’t fix it by the end of July then I’ll be joining the padhack revolution.
In my opinion, which is solely my own, this ‘list’ is a baseline any interested player can look at when making a stick choice. Anybody who ever used DisplayLag.com or purchased their new TV based upon display lag has already decided that this is a valuable factor in gameplay.
If a player makes a more informed choice based upon this or some form of this with improved methodology, that’s awesome and does the community better.
If some scrub complains and points to this list, we can all make fun of their broke ass the same way we would be able to if they blamed their TV or online connection.
Seems like a valuable tool. Maybe some chucklehead feels like abusing it, and if so that is clearly on them and has no reflection upon the data.
-Preppy (who already refuses to money match on certain identical joysticks in the same joystick class because some are simply manufactured better than others and some of the others are unplayable at high levels)
Here’s my reasoning behind what I said (bear in mind, this is a theoretical matchup):
Player X and Player Y are playing on the main stage at Evo in USF4. Player X has a base PS3 Madcatz TE that’s had your basic pre-PS360+ dual mod (360 Pad hack with a Chimp installed), while Player Y has a PS360+ installed in his PS3 Madcatz TE. They play their pools match, which goes down to the last round and Player X wins by a small percentage of health (sub-10%). Later in the weekend, both players meet again; this time at a casual station. They play 10 matches with their controllers and split right down the middle. They play an additional 10 games at the station, this time using the other’s stick; with the edge going to Player X 7-3.
At this point, Player X has a clear advantage (due to having won more matches) over Player Y.
99.9% of the time, the player’s skill and mindset will have absolutely everything to do with the outcome of a match. Now let’s look at Teyah’s list right quick, and as he has pointed out … he has the Chimp in another tier over the PS360+ PCB (PS360+ is dead last according to the ranks). According to this “list”, it should not theoretically be possible, but in the scenario presented here it happens.
This is why I’m calling bullshit on the whole thing. This “list” (if you want to call it that) is nothing but a scrub’s list of excuses that pander to the Eventhubs crowd. There is a reason why top players practice on PC anyway, as a PC will handle USB requests from the controller a lot better and quicker than consoles (consoles like the 360/PS3 have very simple USB bus systems).
Teyah, I want an equal playing field just as much as you do; but do you see me asking MrWizard or any other member of Evo staff to have the matches played on only arcade hardware? It’s doable, but ineffective due to the sheer cost (plus the NESICA system that USF4 Arcade uses will not work outside of Japan due to infrastructure).
People keep forgetting that he was using very outdated firmware on the PS360+.
I’ll admit to forgetting this, maybe he needs to update it then test again? What I said still stands until he retests with updated firmware and provides the results from it.
It’s just a list of data and a description of methods used to obtain the data. There is no inherent implication that equally-skilled players will lose because of PCB differences. I see very few people arguing about the actual data and lots of people arguing about the merits of the data. When you’re calling bullshit on this are you saying that the numbers are not legitimate or that they don’t matter? If it they don’t matter then what’s the big deal?
Maybe people are reading into it too much, but that’s their fault. It doesn’t mean the info is not useful.
It is clearly a list!
It is a list of averaged numbers.
THIS. This right here. Somebody get this man a cookie.
Wrong. The “list” (why are we using quotation marks here? I am pretty sure that this is in fact, actually a list) does not have anything to do with player skill, winning matches by X%, or whatever. It’s a list of results of how fast a certain stick or PCB responds to inputs in comparison to a control. Use that information as you will.
I know people are worried about the annoying scrubs who are going to blame their sticks for all their problems after seeing some lag test results, especially if it becomes more common knowledge. Even though Top Player X uses their stick all the time. Let’s not worry about those people so much. They are silly.
This is basically the same thing as monitor lag, except it’s a bigger magnet for scrubbiness because it doesn’t apply equally to both players. So that sucks. But we don’t have to throw out the baby with the bath water.
I’ll agree it’s a list and MAYBE look at the results again once you retest the PS360+ PCB with the most current firmware. What I will believe of your list will either stay the same or change once you do that.
no one has any idea whether people are reading too much into it. I played a bunch of games versus some of the best 3s players in the country at Evo this weekend, first played them in the side tourney on an Evo monitor and many of them using borrowed Madcatz sticks, then the rest of the weekend played them in casuals on a CRT plus a couple HRAPs.
it was night and day. they’re all arcade players, and everyone played way worse on the laggy setup. it was noticeable. I saw people losing games to people they never lose games to, I saw people beating people way above them in skill level, I saw people frequently missing confirms that are really easy on arcade or OE + CRT… etc. every player involved afterward said the setup felt awful to them and they couldn’t do the basic stuff they need to do/usually do on arcade.
I saw the best Chun in America miss low forward confirms a bunch on the tourney setup. stuff he doesn’t miss on arcade. this is a guy who plays in Japan vs the best competition in the world, who has won major Japanese 3s events.
I 3-0’d the best Makoto player in tourney, then on CRT casuals later he beat me like 70% of our games.
since we’re all dropping anecdotes about “X player plays on this and still wins” or “I can play on laggy setups just fine” or “in my opinion this is all just an excuse for scrubs” I figure my anecdotes qualify.
here’s a fun fact: there’s been far more complaining about “scrubs drawing the wrong conclusions” in this thread than scrubs drawing the wrong conclusions. weird right? it’s almost like it’s an excuse to proxy complain about the test.
I wonder how the Mad Catz Fightstick Pro does on the 360 seeing how it’s the worst on the PS3
I take it your PM box was not flooded with questions after the Thread has started.
I also want to call shenanigans on your story about your “experiences” at tournaments.
Can’t a player have a bad day, had hand cramp, eyes hurt or something; for all the raw data you can’t account for the human element.
If I told you Player 2 lags more than player one, no one would want to play as player 2.
The fact is on many systems including some arcade machines player 2 is known to lag more than player 1.
@Teyah did your testing taken this for account of Player 1 vs Player 2?
yes people can have a bad day. it’s just pretty weird when a bunch of known good players all have a bad day at the same time, and their bad day suddenly disappears when they move to a better setup that same night.
I could see if you asked about tournament nerves, but most of these guys have long tournament records and/or success. I don’t think that was an issue for anyone there.
btw, it’s not “experiences.” it’s experiences. unless you are challenging that I was there at Evo and played with these players, don’t put it in quotes.
I feel for you. Even 1f total lag in the setup on a game like 3S can cause real problems for experienced players. It is easy to hit or approach that with the monitor alone. Unfortunately we are in mixed company here and can’t have a discussion that assumes this sort of thing, so…
I’m trying to help keep the thread on the rails by diverting from the “does lag mean anything” topic.
FYI guys I tested the PS360+ July 2014 firmware update already (1.4) and it didn’t make any real difference in terms of response time on 360. It was ~0.1 ms different than the previous firmware I had on it (1.2 from late 2012). I haven’t done much to test out the dropped near-simultaneous inputs, though I fear that could be due to the high variance of the PS360+. Basically ~14% of the time your inputs will be moved behind by a frame, while ~20% of the time they’ll be moved ahead by a frame. Part of this is due to the slow poll rate of the 360, but I think this amount is very small, when you consider the Paewang (Omni) vs VX-SA test, where the Paewang, despite having 1.5 ms delay, had its inputs “moved ahead” just 1.6% of the time. Although the PS360+ is closer to the frame threshold of 16.67 ms, than the Paewang is to 0 ms, the results variance between 0F/1F/2F delay just seems too high.
What I’m getting at is that the PS360+ shouldn’t be varying in its delay that much. Right now it’s getting 20%/66%/14% in 0F/1F/2F delay, while the Paewang (which is in a similar position, but at the opposite end of the scale) is getting 2%/88%/10% in -1F/0F/1F delay. It’s not entirely comparable, since they’re not at equal points (Paewang is +1.5 ms from 0F, PS360+ is -0.9 ms from 1F) but it’s close enough to see that the Paewang is much more stable.
From the overview:
Condition 2. The console needs to poll for inputs from both USB ports at exactly the same time.
This condition is impossible to meet as there is no way to ensure this is occurring. However, this would still happen even if you were performing this test by hand, or if two players pressed a button at the same time in a match - so there is no real way to control this. The variance from input polling on the console USB side is expected to be random and not favour either P1 or P2 side in the long run. Even so, most tests (all of those with 1,000 trials) were performed half on the P1 side and half on the P2 side with no discernible difference in results.
Can you explain this a little better for me? Did you find the PS360+ to have any of these issues on PS3?
Also:
*Hello again,
We could find a solution within this months it seems, we will keep the public posted on this for sure.
We are looking into the Win 8 issue as well, some have it working and other s don´t (Code 43).
Best Regards,
Per C.,
AkiCus
contact@akishop-customs.com*