How do you stop tick throws?

Classic Fighting Games Super Street Fighter II Turbo
21

Yeah, I remembered it was something like that. I could swear that, if blocking, say, Ryu’s Jump Roundhouse, he could have time to walk a half step after landing and still do Crouch Roundhouse into Fireball before you could, say, Reversal SPD him.

BUT, if you get hit by the Roundhouse, you could definitely SPD him much sooner. That’s where the take-the-hit strategy works a bit: when you think your opponent is expecting you to block. You can throw people off at time by taking hits. I remember Guiles doing this a lot in Classic. They would throw a Sonic Boom and sometimes would just take a hit and throw. It was something I saw Guiles do a lot back in the days of WW.

Also, other times when it is useful: in Hyper Fighting, Ryu and Ken could kill Balrog simply by doing a Meaty Jump Forward into Throw over and over and over and over again. It was really bizarrely hard to stop. But if Balrog took the hit, he could skew the timing by which Ryu or Ken had to Throw, which could help Balrog escape that situation.

Also, in WW to Hyper Fighting, it was even a common tactic with Zangief to mash on Jabs against a Jumping opponent. If they tried to kick late, they would lose (because Zangief is tall and his Close Jab is anti-air). This would, essentially, force the opponent to attack easrly and open himself up to a counter Reversal SPD. So taking the hit and throwing worked well there as well.

NOW, having said all that much, I can’t remember the last time I saw anyone try taht tactic in Super Turbo. YES, you can use it, still, but it IS a horrible tactic now. In WW, it made sense for Guile to do so because most people had to attack early in WW to make sure they beat out Guile’s, say, Counter Stand Roundhouse, Jumping Roundhouse, or Standing Forward Kick. So since you knew people would attack early, taking the hit and throwing made sense.

In Hyper, Balrog could take the hit all he wanted. But clever Ryus and Kens would expect it and combo you, killing you faster than you would have if you just tried to Reversal Throw all day. Plus, in Super Turbo, it’s moot because Balrog has a Reversal. So who needs to take a hit anymore?

And in the last Zangief example, the Lariat does make that strategy rather pointless. Also, in Super Turbo, for the most part, people have gotten so accustomed to Zangief that, really, how many people jump at him? If they are jumping at him, they are asking to die anyhow. Only in very specific situations is it a good idea to Jump at Zangief.

So while I will argue that it was a popular tactic of old, it’s just something not used anymore. And it will rarely benefit you anymore, especially given that almost every character has an anti-air special move now. It’s just not worth the risk/reward factor. I can only see a very few specific times where it might be okay, such as a wake-up anti-air Stand Jab with Bison where, if you get hit, you pray you can Throw them. But that’s the thing: it’s still a prayer, and you never want to base any tactics on prayers.

So in Cam’s defense, it is not unheard of to take the hit and throw. But at the same time, I don’t think it’s really ever practical to use it anymore in Super Turbo.

22

I agree that option selecting is a good strat (like in those anti-air examples), but just straight getting hit like cam347 said (with no option select at all)…I would never do that. He makes it sound like getting hit somehow magically gives you more reversal ability or something, when in reality block stun and hit stun are essentially the same thing, it’s just that hit stun does damage.

Keep in mind too that the lengths for block stun and hit stun are different only for j.Strong, j.Forward, j.Fierce, and j.RH. Block stun and hit stun are the same length for all other non-knockdown moves.

EDIT: Also see the video “How to Reverse Tick Attempts” on http://nki.combovideos.com

I totally forgot I even made that video…

23

say ken does mk throw. then jumps afterward with jab+hurricane kick. then throws again. when is the best time to reversal, when he jumps in with the jab+hurricane kick or after blocking jab+hurricane kick.
i can’t escape this for shit.
also, i’m very newb. if you see them possibly go for a tic throw is it smart to jump/back roundhouse. i know this game is like no other but is this a good strat?

24

If you’re good, you can try a Reversal at BOTH points. Try a Reversal DP against the Jump Jab and then try again after the Air HK Kick. The only problem is that if the Ken expects you to try this, he may just Combo you after the Air HK Kick.

So if you don’t want to risk that, you might be best to only try the Reversal after the HK Kick. Ken has far less options to really hurt you if you fail there. He’ll most likely just end up Throwing you again.

Jumping away with Roundhouse to escape a Tick only works if your opponent’s timing really sucks. But if you can get off a Jump Roundhouse before they throw you, you should be able to throw them first or Reversal them everytime. A well-timed tick will always catch you before you can get off the ground.

25

Tick Masters

http://www.shoryuken.com/wiki/index.php/Super_Street_Fighter_2_Turbo#Strategy

Under Multi-tap/Multi-release I want to make sure I’m understanding this correctly.

For countering tick throws you can reversal throw them, because you have frame advantage (block stun/hit stun); and you can multi-tap/piano-key all possible throw buttons? If that’s true then would Ryu have 7 frame window for reversal throwing Giefs cr.shortxxSPD tick attempt [assuming it’s a perfect tick], since he can throw with 4 buttons (i.e. in this situation it would seem like Ryu would have the upper hand in the tick attempt).

Gentlemen if this is correct then I’ve not spent enough time at srk.com learning, because it will make some difficult matches easier. :woot:

26

Depends on the characters. Trust me, depending on the matchups, the answer to your question is “probably can’t.”

Best bet: psychic reversals.

27

Thanks for the reply but, as long as the opponent is within your throw range you should throw them first right? I don’t see why the character would matter? The timing determines who get’s thrown first, right? The one frame is your frame and a throw has no start up.

As for psychic reversals you can just use option select to either reversal attack or reversal throw.

28

The problem is that good tick throwers are playing characters with superior throw ranges (big 3, Blanka, Dhalsim, dictator, boxer MP) and take advantage of that range advantage. So if your character’s throw range doesn’t match up and they have a decent tick (all of them do), then you can try to counter-throw all day without succeeding. In these cases, you have to try and go for a reversal.

29

I’m not sure you have the same definition of “frame advantage” that most other people use.

Frame advantage usually refers to being able to control your character while your opponent is still stuck in blockstun or hitstun. This happens after you make an attack. If I’m Chun Li and you block my cr.MK, I’ll get back to neutral state just a few frames earlier than you will, because I’ll finish the move recovery frames faster than you’ll come out of blockstun. So I’ve got just a hair of time afterwards where I can move or start another attack or whatever while you’re stuck.

Some moves give more frame advantage than others. A move like Blanka’s s.neutral close MP (the arm hit) recovers extremely quickly and gives lots of frame advantage on block. It’s also possible for a move to have frame disadvantage. If you’re Dictator and you start a slide when right next to your opponent and they block it, they’re going to come out of the blockstun way before you finish the recovery, so they go back to neutral before you and can easily punish you. Finally, the amount of frame advantage a move gives can vary depending on when it hits, which usually comes into play on meaty attacks or other positional considerations.
…

Tick throws, by definition, do not involve frame advantage. (Unless you mean in some indirect way, like “I tick him with this move and then use the frame advantage to walk forward into throw range, then throw as he goes into neutral.”) This is because you can’t throw or grab someone unless they are in a neutral state, and being in hitstun or blockstun actually protects them from throws.

No, because the window for doing reversals of any type is only ever one frame. Right as you come out of hitstun or blockstun, you get that tiny reversal window where you can input a move but you aren’t actually in neutral state. If you’re trying to reversal throw – which is entirely possible, it’s just that the game doesn’t display “Reversal” unless you did a special move – the reason you’re recommended to slam all your throw inputs in there with a piano or multi-tap is just to increase your chances of getting one of them timed correctly. You machine-gun a whole ton of inputs in a tiny amount of time hoping that one of them was correct. You don’t particularly care which throw you get as long as you get any of them. So with Guile, you can try to counterthrow with HP~MP. With DeeJay, you can try HK~HP~MP~MK because he can throw with any of those buttons.

And you’re right, if you correctly put a throw command in the reversal window and your opponent is throwable (not jumping or invincible, within your throw range, etc.) then you will beat their tick throw attempt and throw them first, every time. The tricky part, as Ganelon said, is that sometimes certain characters can throw you from ranges whereby you can’t throw back.

30

Thanks for the confirmation Raisin. By frame advantage I was referring to the 1 frame you have to counter the tick attempt, because it’s too your advantage:rofl:. You are right about the actual definition though :rofl:

Now it’s time to practice :tup: