This is an oxymoron and can’t be done.
Have a newbie who just learned special move motions go against a “reasonably competent” Super Turbo player.
Let the tick throws begin.
The thing is, the things that are the most important in ST and Tekken you can’t learn from solo play, or not effectively. You can only learn them from fighting other players (even playing the AI won’t do it, those old ais never footsie or tick-throw right).
Also, seriously, you can be effective even at middle-high level without strings in both of those games, if nothing else because the damage is so high.
It absolutely helps, and becomes more necessary at higher levels, but you can go a LOOONG way on a good sense of timing and spacing. In something like MvC you’re dead in the water without that knowledge. You can’t even begin to learn.
Part of what I think you’re saying is that it’s on a slider, and I’d absolutely agree with that. The question is in where the slider is at any time. In the earliest games the practice point was at ‘being able to do a dragon punch’ (which in 1992 many people just couldn’t do, but which carried over from game to game), now it’s at ‘do an effective BnB’ (which takes a fair amount of character specific).
Part of this is the internet too of course, just the knowledge of what you're able to do and the damage you *should* be doing warps peoples play experience.
Edit:
[quote=UnshapedOrkRandomNumber, post: 6861482, member: 56893]
Have a newbie who just learned special move motions go against a "reasonably competent" Super Turbo player.
Let the tick throws begin.
[/quote]
Which just strengthens my point in 2 ways.
First of all, you really can't effectively practice tick throws or *avoiding* tick throws single player. **It's something you have to learn by playing other people.**
Secondly, it shows that games can be accessible and still reward skill. You can play the game to a basic level of competence and still have fun, but **skill will still absolutely tell, just without the practice mode bullshit**.
Advanced execution is the absolute lowest common denominator of skill in fighting games. We should be much more impressed by a skilled read or impressive reaction than we should be by a phat combo.…
I…I…
I don’t know too much about ST, but I KNOW for a fact that you CANNOT be effective at mid-high level tekken without knowing your strings.
Also, you’re making it sound like current games nowadays reward more on for knowing your combos then reading.
Which, I don’t believe.
There’s a difference between “KNOWING YOUR COMBOS MAKE YOUR A GOOD PLAYER” and “Part of being a good player is knowing your combos”.
I don’t care how many combos you know in any game, if you can’t play, if you can’t read, if you can’t open me up, you lose.
It’s like that even in MVC3.
So you’re saying that games that completely hide their competitive mechanics from the players are more accessible than games that have their mechanics out in the open?
What kind of crazy bullshit is that? How can the more accessible game be the one where you have to ask people how to play it properly?
people wasting their time replying to xes, someone who never listens, thinks that always has the reason, and more than 99% of the time doesnt know what is he talking about, with a 1% of margin error
To take a somewhat extreme hypothetical, if I’m twice as good as you at opening people up, but can only do 20% combos, where as you can do 70-100% combos, you’re just about always going to win, and all my opening up is going to feel useless.
Go play MvC2 or 3 and don’t do any combos beyond basic magic series>launch>magic series at all. You’re not even playing the game, and its obvoius.
Go back and play TTT. 2 counter hit death fists will kill a man. You could do well in almost all the arcades out there not knowing any combo deeper than Wind God Fist>122. Tekken *6, *you need to know your strings way more than you did in the old games, in fact that’s one of my major complaints about the game.
In comparison, you see people win in MvC3 off of practice mode. I happened to be watching the first time Crispy Tacoz showed up at a Bay Area MvC3 event. He was a practice mode warrior, and it was obvious from looking at him. And yet he did really impressively well (at a venue that featured people like FChamp and Kbeast (also HonzoGonzo and Chrisis) at the time). That combo knowledge and execution, the sheer amount of damage he could get off of any conversion carried him a LONG way, in a way that mastering f,f,2 x6 in Tekken Tag just wouldn’t.
[quote=UnshapedOrkRandomNumber, post: 6861548, member: 56893]
So you're saying that games that completely hide their competitive mechanics from the players are *more accessible* than games that have their mechanics out in the open?
What kind of crazy bullshit is that? How can the more accessible game be the one where you have to ask people how to play it properly?
[/quote]
Again, its in how you learn them. Learning by playing other people is *inherently superior* to learning by single player practice. It's the difference between work and play.Is the OP still looking at this thread by the way? lol
sick avatar bud.
MMO’s came up earlier, and it made me think of something else in parallel gaming news.
SF is the World of Warcraft of fighting games. What we see constantly right now is efforts to adapt and improve on Street fighter (or sometimes on Guilty Gear or Marvel), pretty much incremental improvments and adjustments of set rules.
What the genre needs is its Guild Wars, the game that actually looks at all the assumptions fans hold dear and says “We don’t need this, this is good, this can be cut.” That breakaway boldness just hasn’t come yet, and fighting games will be stuck until it does.
Guild Wars was just great. Too bad you needed 7 other people to play the coolest stuff. But that’s really what we need: to cut the BS, and keep it competitive.
What they should do is to get ST, cut damage by 25% on the top 4 supers, add a couple of characters, balance it even more but keep the old characters, get good artists so both graphics and animation works, and voila, an amazing fighting game that looks cool to the current audience. It is not really too hard.
SF4 sold a lot due to the reasons Voltech presented. It had nothing to do with the newbie-friendly crap in it.
are you even sure on that 1%?
Sorry, meant 2, the one about to come out that has everyone in a tizzy
Sent from my Radar 4G using Board Express
do i have to explain the joke:/
or would be more clear if i said, 101% of the time with 1% margin error 
I’ve skimmed this thread and all I see are people wanting tutorial this and tutorial that.
Figure it the fuck out. FG’s arent going to get any better if the community is sterilized, by having everything handed to them in tutorials, which BTW, are already spoon fed to people on the front page or YouTube. Everyone’s going to play X game and/or X character exactly the same because thats what the tuts say to do. It already happened to MVC3/UMVC3, where there isn’t a single deviation off the beaten path, in regards to strats, and combos.
I think you’re misunderstanding what people are asking for.
What they don’t want is MvC/SF4 style ‘here’s how you do a combo, do this combo’ tutorials, but rather ‘practice breaking throws’ or ‘practice blocking overheads’ tutorials. People are trying to figure out how to teach the non-rote elements of skill, not the rote ones.
PS to Jeb and Hecatom, you guys seriously need to get a grip.
There’s a differences between combo challenges (mission/challenge mode), combo videos, etc. and a proper, training mode that actually teaches you fighting game fundamentals (e.g. VF4 EVO, Skullgirls).
You and the 12+ people that liked this realize that Producers like Ono and Nitsuma have VERY little to do with what goes into the final game right? Or you just need a scapegoat?
Except for the fact that reads and reactions require execution in order to be effective. So I’d say being impressed by execution is perfectly fine.
Whenever I watch match videos, the main thing I look for is execution. Yeah, I get impressed by good reads and reactions but then I always remember that both of these require execution. in order to work.
EDIT: Look at Kusoru’s performance at FR15. That dude has some dirty ass tactics with his team (ie - ending vs. FChamp) but he’s only able to utilize such tactics because his execution allows him to do so. People kept falling for the log trap. He knew exactly when to use it and kept hitting it. All of his reads would be useless if he kept dropping mid combo or couldn’t follow up.
Funnily, we were just talking about Kurosu in that other thread I’m in right now
And naturally, as in everything, there’s a point of balance. I’m in no way arguing that execution doesn’t matter at all, or isn’t an element of skill, it clearly is.
Execution in reactions is impressive when its recognizing and executing a proper counter, or pulling off a really cool unexpected hit confirm.
When I’m saying ‘lowest common denominator’ I’m more referring to how impressed people get by combo videos, or by execution demonstrations ala desk.