Almost everything was tho. There was just such a huge glut of games that did all kinds of things to stand out in the old days.
Still, I have a pretty encyclopedic knowledge of FG’s (If I may say so myself), and I can’t think of anything quite like that. Either way, it was a bold implementation.
That was a thing about the pre-slump days, there was so much competition that people HAD to be innovative and try new things, that’s severely lacking now.
Edit: My friend thought of 2 examples, but they’re both on the very fringe of the genre, if in it at all: Star Control and Smash.
I speak from the perspective of casual gamers and those who don’t play games very often. I know that we are talking about innovating fighting games but the truth is the people who play fighting games the most are fighting game fans. It is not that most casual players would care about frame data, canceling, chainlinks, etc as much as they would learning how to execute a fireball, combo or just plain not trying to lose. Most players would rather just pick up and play the game but to play fighters seriously, you need to be able to practice for hours and even then you may not be at the level of tournament players. As a genre it would never regain the popularity that it did back in the 90s when Street Fighter II was dominant in the arcades especially with games like Third Strike catering to te hardcore crowd.
There is a reason Super Smash Bros. (as much as it is hated by fighting game community) is as popular as it Smash is a game where anyone can pick up and play, that is not to say that it doesn’t have its share of scrubs and elitists Sure, you fight on levels that wouldn’t look out of place in a platform game where you use items to blast opponents while rying to get them of the stage. Unlike most fighters, the goal isn’t to deplete your opponents health bar but to beat them down to a high percentage to get them off the stage. The concept is simple enough that you don’t need to be insanely skilled to play the game.The fighting game genre has alienated casual players and the average joe, they may not care about the techincal aspects of the game but they just want to be able to play the game.
There’s casual, and there’s casual, though. Sports games (and sports fighters) are pretty complex (putting aside “depth” which is a seperate issue), in terms of mechanics to learn and controls to get used to, they’re at least as complex as ST and most other 2D FGs.
Yet they have no trouble attracting very large numbers of mainstream players. I dont think what’s keeping those players away from FGs is complexity. It’s more aesthetics/themes. You know how some FG players look down on anime games as being too “weaboo” or whatever? Well, the mainstream gamer look down on FGs as being too nerdy/archaic/sweaty unwashed boys/whatever. (of course, the “real” mainstream - the non gamers, look down on gamers as also being too nerdy/sweaty unwashed boys/whatever. Its the hierarchy of contempt!)
So yeah, in a world where the mainstream are either interested in photorealism & plausibility (sports games / gran turismo / COD etc) or simple abstract icons & simple abstract gameplay (farmville, mobile casual games, etc), 2D sprites are caught in an unpopular middle ground, and FG mechanics are arcane and archaic.
This is also why Quake is no longer the most popular FPS series - because of its surreal art and non-plausible mechanics/physics/universe.
Heh, if anyone wants to counter with SC2, DoTA and WoW, then I’d say Blizzard is a wierd one-off exception
Uh, NO. Fighting games have not alienated the casual player. The past few years has been nothing but games trying to CATER to the casual player. It only seems like only “hardcore” players win because the best strategies have become so easy to share with the internet and youtube, that it’s really not that difficult to become decent at a game.
One of my favorite things about the genre is that it truly seems to reward practice. Why shouldnt someone who takes the time to practice be able to beat most people who havent practiced as much? Casual people sound like they want to just pick up the game and start being able to beat the most skilled players, which is asinine. Why shouldnt I be able to swim as fast as Michael Phelps? I mean, all I should have to do is get in the pool right?
Heres the thing with casual players wanting to be good, fighting games have been a group activity disguised as an individual activity since SF2.
If you are a casual or newer player you probably think its and individual thing but If you been around longer you probably know what I’m talking about. Its no coincidence that the best players come from densely populated areas. Its no coincidence that there are still arcades open in almost all of the cities where top players come from. To get top good at fighting games you need other people, there is alot of work you need to put in by yourself, hard work, but what you really need is other people. Having more people makes learning fighting games more fun and you also learn much quicker.
For example you know how you said they are focused on how to “execute a fireball, combo or just plain not trying to lose”? Focusing on executing fireballs and combos is exactly WHY they lose. Thats the kind of thing I’d let someone know on day one when they first got on the game. If the reason you’re losing is because you’re focused on learning the wrong aspects of the game first thats not bad game design, thats you.
You can either pick up the game and hit random button OR you can be good at the game, but you can’t pick up the game hit random buttons AND be good at the game.
It all depends on how much time you’re willing to put into the game. I’m definitely not a casual player, but I don’t have as much time availble to put into games these days, so I realize (much to my chagrin) that there’s a skill ceiling I’ll probably hit (and lord do I when I play KoFXIII >:-| ). If you’re not willing to learn the game and put the time in, I don’t think you can really complain when you’re not reaching the higher skill levels and not beating players who ARE putting the time in.
But at the same time, you and a couple buddies could pick up a game and enjoy it on its most basic levels and have a pretty good time as long as you’re all fairly evenly matched up.
not like it has before. Things like ultras and XF are retarded ass comeback mechanics that don’t offer any practice. Some of the shit you can pull off with XF are 1 handed, dial a combo that is TOD. Something that offers that much damage shouldn’t be able to pull off with 1 hand. where the fuck is the practice?
the genre since sf4 has gone through a durpification. Instead of receiving god like games, we have to tip toe around this middle ground between pro\casual and its honestly absurd. Nothing else that is competitive purposely makes their game easier so more people can play. Only for fighting games does that exist. Can you imagine professional bowlers using those bumper rails to prevent gutter balls? there would be a hell of a lot more 215 averages which is pretty much a pro’s average but since it would affect the integrity of the game, the sport doesn’t go to it.
fighting game developers are money grubbing fucks. They don’t care about the integrity to the series and will lower the quality of the game if it means more people will buy it especially capcom
Feel free to make your own game. Your definition of “integrity” appears to be “a game that shoultzula is good at”, and nobody can possibly design this game except for you.
There are a number of free tools and learning resources online, so spend less time bitching and more time creating something.
Covered this before, but while this is a common complaint, its also just not true. Casual players don’t want to Swim as fast as Michael Phelps, they want to feel that they’re capable of swimming the length of the pool, and they want to feel that they are able to improve their skills.
People have this myth that all casuals are somehow inherently different than ‘hardcore’ players, but that’s just wrong. When you get right down to it, they want the same thing, which is, in essence to compete and make progress.
Edit: That’s mind games-- providing substantive rebuttals since the summer of 2010!
apparently all you have to do is cry hard enough on the internet and Capcom will listen to your complaints. I’ve seen it for sf4, umvc3 and sfxt. Fuck making games, just keep posting and if enough people agree with something, capcom does it aka the sentinel nerf from vanilla mvc3 or making the online laggier for sfxt because more idiots prefer good sound over better net code.
and technically, you can say that to anyone else in this thread like xes and the entire capcomunity board lol. Hey xes spend less time theorizing your game and go download those free tools and make your own. Spend more time creating something and less time bitching!!
i should of said only for esports do companies make games easier to play. It doesn’t happen in sports @ all. Fuck, it doesn’t even happen @ scrabble\chess tournaments. No one is complaining chess is too high level, I can’t beat this player so give me an equivalent of XF in chess. I can’t compete with these scrabble players that remember words all day, just give me a dictionary because if I trained just like they did I could do it too!!
Exactly. There’s a balancing act when designing a competitive 1v1 game, where you need to foster the perception of fairness (the better player wins) and you have to soften the sting of loss so players aren’t discouraged. The best way to help people accept losses and grow from them is to teach them where they could’ve done something different to alter the outcome, like if they scouted earlier in Starcraft then they would’ve been able to counter the stealth units, or in ST if you just blocked that sweep then you could’ve taken the round.
Certain games that place more value on “practice time” run a risk of alienating potential players, because when they lose, the hill they have to climb in order to start winning can appear to be impossibly steep (even if it isn’t).
Yeah, you might just want to put him on ignore. Works for me.
The online sound issue needed to be fixed. It was unacceptable and made their engineering department look like hacks. I would not feel comfortable putting out a product that lacked basic functionality to that degree.
Otherwise, I see no issue with Capcom responding to community complaints and making changes. The community are their customers, and they’re not in the “make pure games that judge the worth of a man” business, they’re in the making games business. There was a perception that their new game was unfair, so they responded, and the response didn’t appear to have a substantial negative effect on the game’s popularity. It was a good move, and in their position, I also would’ve done something (probably not the same thing, but something).
I have said it to xes many times. Even if your project isn’t nearly at a professional level, people who believe they could make a better game should go ahead and make that better game. There quite a few single-dev projects out there, and many of them are damn good. If you honestly believe that your ideas are fundamentally superior, you should put them to the test.
SC seems to disagree with you. A game that is very hard to pick up has a scene 30x bigger than the entire fighting game community combined.
The depth of the game doesn’t drive people away. In fact, in can actually increase the player pool as its the case with SC. Even chess has a bigger player base than we have and its so much fucking harder to learn to play those games @ high level than fighters.
if the casual market is going to bitch to no end and force a change, the hardcore market can do the same. I think we’ve gotten our way 1 time and it was the netcode in sfxt actually being good before the lag patch err, sorry sound patch.
The problem isn’t learning the games at high levels it’s learning the games at low levels.
I actually did an essay in here somewhere about how chess and go are specifically the models fighting games should follow.
They’re both utterly accessible and allow for infinite skill growth, and are absolute proof that you can have it both ways.
PS: Starcraft is much easier to pick up than any fighting game, especially since Blizzard has ‘early singleplayer levels as tutorial’ down to a level that’s goddamn fine art.
oh a player that hasn’t proved he can play fighting games wrote an essay about the way fighting games should be?
can’t wait to read it…
if you don’t know how to play, then you never truly understand what is wrong with some of the approaches. That is just the way things are. I know how a car engine works but if you started asking me what every little piece does, i’m fucking lost. As you are when it comes to these topics. Since you’ve never played any of these games “hard”, you don’t know what every little piece does and how something like simpler “execution” completely fucks a fighting game. I’ve had more trouble dialing international numbers than doing wesker combos, and they both involve single button presses. Execution is irrelevant!!!
