I was asking specifically what he meant by “first ultras, now ‘holding forward’”.
Oh. I can dig it.
Stop trying to gimmick people into playing your games, and just try to make good games. Everybody played SF2 and MVC2, and those are two of the more “hardcore” games that people will name.
You put too much faith in “credentials.”
A game I can change. Tweak numbers, add features, alter assets, write some code… these are things that I can do.
Changing people’s behavior and priorities… that’s not my line of work.
So, I’ll stick to discussing things I can change in a game, and not get distracted by musing about the way I wish people would act. Even if I wanted the average user to spend time in practice mode in order to play the game at a reasonable level (which I really don’t), I can’t make them do it, so discussing that is pointless.
Right, and this is exactly why lessening execution in the easy motion gems for SFxTekken isn’t a good thing. They’re taking moves that have execution obviously as a balancing factor and attempting to change the execution while keeping the move’s benefit’s more or less intact. That doesn’t work. It can’t work. You can’t create an easy mode in a game that has normal motions and expect it to work competitively. You have to work from the ground up with a game that realizes that simple motions will be how the game is played, not as a secondary option.
Anyway, functionality I’d like to see in fighting games:
Online training mode:
I’d love to be able to help people out with skills through online training mode sessions. With everyone having headsets now, it’d be really convenient if I didn’t have to meet up at a gathering to teach people how to play fighting games. Just booting up the game and getting people into training mode would be really really helpful. Like for example, creating a lobby that lets four people into the game, one being the teacher, the other being the learners. Give the teacher the ability to hit a button to swap control of the character between the three people who are learning so that they can all get a shot to practice the character.
Blackshinobi’s idea for single player:
Create a single player experience that’s similar to RPG progression to get (force) people to learn their characters better. Start with only letting a character defend themselves from an onslaught. Then slowly give them access to progressively more and more tools of their character. Even the most basic functions, movement, jumping, keep those locked until the player advances in the story. It’s important to frame this as the ‘story mode’ instead of a ‘tutorial mode’ because players will just skip tutorial modes anyway. Once they’ve gained access to all their tools, start taking some things away from them to keep things interesting and for people to better realize situations “boy, I could really use my c.fp anti air right now.”
Starcraft does a pretty good job of this, especially in Brood War. By the time a player starts playing the Brood War campaign missions, they’re used to being able to build all the units each race has to offer. But most of the missions provide interesting plot reasons on why particular units are not available (Protoss warp facilities are down, a new group of Terrans that haven’t established their presence, Kerrigan hasn’t regained total control of the Zerg) and let the player really realize situations where the best option would be to use the units they don’t have, so they appreciate those units more when they finally get them back.
…Because? It isn’t like I’m going to agree with someone just because they have them.
I put faith in credentials.
Well, at least credentials over random.
I’d listen to Mike Z about SG before Joe Smoe.
I would listen to Mike Z on SG not because he has related credentials but because he is able to construct sound arguments for whatever aspect of SG is being discussed. But if Joe Smoe is able to give sound counter-arguments for these same aspects I see no reason not to give them equal attention in their discussion. I would not brush Joe aside as just some random schmuck, nor would I give Mike Z a pass simply because he created the game engine.
With or without credentials you still have to defend your case. The best you can hope for is that those with credentials are able to better defend theirs than those without. Too bad this is isn’t always the case.
Of course.
No one should blindly follow.
The thing is, most people have their credentials for a reason.
The key here is how much faith. When you hold them aloft over everyone else you lose perspective. Just because someone is good at a game doesn’t mean they have any idea how to make it better. It could just mean they’re very good at exploiting something perhaps too strong.
Which brings us back to point some people (like me) have been trying to make. It’s not about making uppers one-button commands or some other ludicrous straw man everyone is so fond of making in this thread. It’s about how games are designed around this idea that because you can do some ridiculous sequence of inputs you should be rewarded. It’s not about getting rid of combos or setups or any of the sort. For example if you have to kara-throw to make throws viable, why not just make throws better? You could design these throws so literally nothing would change about the ebb and flow of a match, except you would just drop out extra inputs.
I don’t want to miss the point of this post, but aren’t throws good enough? ( I mean SF4 throws and Skullgirls)
Also, what would be your solution to the problem of “execution” or the principle of it?
I believe that the guy who can do it better than me should be rewarded, because he took time out to do it better.
It’s not gonna make a difference if he has no goddamn spacing, or footsies, or mindgames, none of those require physical execution.
It’s there as another part of the puzzle.
If Brolylegs can play SF4, and well, why is anyone else complaining about inputs or how “complicated” they are?
That whole I believe arguments, not credentials thing sounds nice, but you have to possess some degree of credentials yourself to accurately judge the arguments.
Specific criticism: Kara throws have more range, but also longer startup. They are therefore useful in different situations. You can’t “just make throws better” without losing that.
More general criticism: Assuming that fighting games should not reward execution is begging the question. Why should they not reward a player for doing “some ridiculous sequence of inputs”? How would that make them better competitive games? Is chess a better competitive game than billiards? Why or why not?
Your assuming game developers don’t try to balance throw properties before the game is released which is absurd, who release a game where they think throws are bad without some reasoning, even in SFxT the developers have said multiple times that they reduced throw range to deal with other issues from testing.
BTW kara throws do different things as well, one of my character’s kara throws increases his range, the other’s make her airborne and therefore ground throw proof, so I won’t even get into how ridiculous intentionally making rose’s kara throw her actual throw would be, and assume you’re just talking about distance which as already mentioned would off balance the game if the developers already figure out what a good distance was and then just added more for no reason.
Billiards like video games have a physical property, and its a much better comparison than chess, or poker which comes up a lot too. The physical condition of your body affects how you play billiards and video games, it does not effect how you play chess. In billiards you can practice a trick shot for hours and days until you get it down, and you are rewarded, for it during a game with options that other players don’t have. Theres are no physical trick shots it chess, and I think that is what some people would like to get fighting games to, but for those people I’d just like to point out again that CHESS IS NOT A PHYSICAL ACTIVITY.
Don’t hate on MK9. It has some tragic bugs but overall ok design and didn’t sellout to scrubs. Post patches, it’s a really good 1st effort for a tournament game.
“This era”? Ever since SF2 fireballs and throws were nerfed which each new game and series and gimmicks were added instead of that. Capcom always listened to scrubs.
im not hating on mk9 
its precisely what im saying
word on that
[media=youtube]83nSodg-HTU[/media]
The problem here is that everyone seems to be concentrating on the “how,” as in “how to do the moves” (execution). What we really should be focusing on the “what” and the “why.” In other words, “what should I do in this situation” and “why should I be doing this.”
:sleep:
funny thing is that i play exactly like this. i need to step up my execution. while i’m at it i’ll work on my elocution too;)
Capcom needs to sponser Broly like yesterday.
A God Amongst Men.
also, taunting after dizzy?
rubbin salt in?
really? seriously?
what a merciless mo fo.
What are you guys thinking about Persona 4 (leader in the arcade chart in Japan) and its easy and simple approach ?