How Could Fighting Games Change for the Better?

If something bugs you it bugs you, annoyance isn’t something you can control.

Anyways, if that’s the case they should try to express what’s wrong. “Dumbing down” is kind of the accepted answer for these discussions, which is part of the reason I think it reflects lack of thought.

Think of a fantasy world where everyone tried to be specific instead of most people just saying ‘quit dumbing it down to cater to scrubs!’ What a wonderous, if fictional place.

Shin: I explained that!

edit to quote the other guy above though:

I figured everyone knew what a skill progression was :stuck_out_tongue:

Umm…what? The pacing of any given fighting game today matches pretty much what we were at 10 years ago. Other design elements are generally what make a modern game feel “slow” (the amount of damage you do, how a game rewards defense/offense, the degree of emphasis on footsies/spacing, the speed of jumps, etc.).

This one is a legitimate problem but not for the reasons people like to cry about on the internet. Adding shortcuts as simple and loose as the shoryuken shortcut in SF4 leads more to getting a dp when I don’t want one more than magically handing “scrubs” wins. It feels loose to the point of being sloppy.

The problem most people have with this -though they may not state it- is not the very nature of the mechanic so much as the recent examples have been too good. X-Factor gives the players far too much: life regen, no chip damage, ridiculous speed and damage increases, AND a goddamn roman cancel on top of that. Ultras get shit (rightfully so) because of the way they’re weighted. Winning SF4 strategy became more about strings that were safe on block into a special fadc into ultra because they just netted a player way too much damage for an action he/she made safe.

I do have problems with the nature of a “comeback mechanic,” but I understand why designers are trying to implement them in some form. A slippery slope is just as bad as never knowing who is actually winning.

Customization in competitive games is awful and stupid, but surely you can understand why developers put them in games. They see these mechanics in other games that sell. Like hotcakes.

I will be so bold as to say that kind of customization has no place in fighting games, because of the sheer amount of variables it adds to a given game. Think about all the things developers have to consider when balancing a game: character damage, the degree of risk involved, how character-specific abilities interact with general mechanics, etc. Developers already have enough trouble getting balance right already.

…and this where it gets sticky. Players can pick terrible reasons for why they like or hate a given game. Just look at any top player interview. Even Daigo is guilty of promoting gameplay mechanics that keep him on top. Input from top competitive players is good and smart when developing a game for their community, but developers need to be aware of what they take from it.

So I have a good challenge for people, find a fighting game that doesn’t substantially reward skill.

Are you elaborating on the points I made, agreeing with me or being sarcastic? I really can’t tell. Also I don’t think customization is bad. SC did customization right. Gems just went overboard with the new ones thats just an example though not trying to bash sf x t (auto block and auto tech ect ) . though Im never gonna buy it.

I think he means actual gameplay customization, not just changing how the character looks. Although I guess CaS actually has some of that with determining character size.

If people want to customize characters moves they should just play fightermaker. Because to my knowledge that doesn’t really work that well, then how would you implement it comes up. Cause people would just pick all of the best moves (most frame advantage/damage ect) and put them on their character. and we’d have the same “types” of characters anyway.

And clothes can hide limb movement.

CvS2 was fine with the different grooves.
I can’t remember the name of the game but there were items you could pick before you fought, that was fine. He had like knights and amazons and wizards and orges etc.
Chaos Code has extra specials/supers to select after picking the character.

SFxT might of been played with [default] gems if setting them wasn’t in an entirely different screen from character select or if the post release way was better.

those examples I like yeah, Chaos Code/3S super arts/SSF4 ultra select, I like the idea of picking a super that somewhat changes how you play.

Arguably Slash/Bust in SS3/4 as well, although those were really more whole separate characters.

I think the trick might be control. Grooves were fine, isms were fine (until people figured out which ones were better), but custom grooves didn’t work out well. I think gems would work well if you could quickly choose out of 3-4 possible sets instead of going through that awful PITA system they have.

I stopped playing SF4 because I found it utterly depressing to beat people far more skilled than I was. Their skills were nerfed badly enough by the game that I could beat them with a half-assed Dan. That’s my opinion.

edit: In my world, generally any game in which JMar crushes my soul and my will to live is a game that rewards skill. Any game I have a reasonable shot in probably has nerfed the benefit of skill.

ha, its like me doing from ok to good on umvc3 tournaments despite not knowing shit of my characters (zero, task master) outside lol sentinel

Darke Awake aka Chaos Breaker

My opinion is that if you were constantly beating people better than you with Dan, either you’re selling yourself way short, or you’re overestimating them :stuck_out_tongue:

Weird emphasis on the word ‘opinion’ there, btw.

I’m just going to quote Mike_Z

Not saying it won’t work or the game is awful because I am hype to try out Chaos Code when it comes out but yeah, this just concerning selectable Supers/Specials.

Mike’s philosophy is to always leave as many options open as possible. My philosophy is that forcing people to make choices can actually deepen a game and enhances the uniqueness of characters/playstyles.

The ‘best option is always taken’ is something that happens without regard to those kinds of choices though, it’s not really different than the way you start to always see optimized combos, or even top-tier character/team picks. The fact that nobody plays Marrow (even as a joke) shouldn’t reflect badly on having to pick characters (a little reductio absurdum, yeah but its the same concept).

A thing for motions is that is that it adds more to the metagame.

If i do D, DF, F + Jab - I get a fireball
if i do D, DF, F + Short - I get a standing short
If you react to me crouching and jump in anticipation of a fireball and i do s.LK, then i’ll DP you.

It’s the most basic example, but it proves the point.

Motions also add constraints in terms of human ability. How silly would it be to be able to do 720 with f+P? Even in SC5, if Ivy’s iCS was just f+P, that shit would be ridiculous. You might argue that you should then change the move itself to accommodate changes so execution isn’t a factor, but i’d argue that because difficult moves such as these have a big payoff, it makes them only useful in certain situations and in turn makes these situations more obvious for the opponent. This adds to the overall depth to the system. For example, using the command grabs again. You know that if you are against a Zangief, then it is pretty much a given that he isn’t going to walk up to you and take more than a 1/3 of your life with a 720, but you do know that he can buffer a 720 during jumps, dashes, recovery etc. So you know that when you are both at neutral around Zangiefs 360 range, the MOST he can do is a 360 without making some sort of decision in which the zangief can buffer a 720. The opponent then knows that if Zangief tries to jump in, then all of a sudden if he doesn’t react properly then he could eat that 720, but then the Zangief player can know that and if he tries to jump away, then he can tag during jump startup with an air normal instead of empty jumping and doing 720.

Same with SC5 kinda. You don’t typically want to stand around buffering iCS at neutral, because you dont really want to be buffering in every which way for a couple of seconds because the opponent can just punish you while you are stepping or blocking for ages. So the most likely option is that you are going to buffer iCS during some sort of recovery. If you buffer it during your own blockstun for example, you recover from your move, they recover from theirs, then all of a sudden you dash in and do iCS. Now the opponent might expect you t do something like this and after they recover, choose to duck or a move with crouch tech and you the Ivy player then get punished for it. You don’t get this back and forth mindgame if you could just dash in and do iCS with 1 button press, because that would mean you could do it from anywhere at anytime, so there is really nothing for the opponent to adapt to.

On to another matter.

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I think things such as tutorials seen in VF, BB and SG are needed to allow new players to have access to the information we already understand without them looking it up at places such as this. That’s a very good thing. But the thing i have been wondering about lately is why should that new player care? There is a tutorial on Skullgirls that teaches you the basics on hit confirming your combos, but why should this new player care about that? Now, i’m not looking for the obvious answer of 'Aha! it allows you to apply pressure and continue your combo if it hits and keep safe if they block!" No, i’m talking on an even more fundamental level of why.

Imagine if you were suddenly trying to teach hit confirms to your girlfriend. What you teach her could be perfectly valid and could be explained in the most clear way possible, but why would she care? Chances are, she isn’t going to give a crap about what you’re saying. It probably won’t be to react to your opponents blocks at any rate. So instead, you just give her the dick. That’s great. However, we can’t just give the dick to these new players. They are probably male so that would be pretty homo. No, instead we have to teach them - before we teach them the mechanics of fighting games - the fundamental reasons on why we love to beat the shit out of people.

Let’s face it, we are horrible people. We take joy and excitement out of beating people up. We love to completely overwhelm our foes and take extra pleasure if they haven’t even touched us once. We love to make a turn-around and decimate our opponents when they have us at inches of our life. But why? Why do we love to do those things? We do we have this drive to beat each other up. This drive is what caused us to come to sites like SRK and find new ways in which to beat people up harder. I think the whole of SRK has forgotten this drive, because it’s just become so natural to us. Once you have signed up to this site (or similar sites) then you probably already have the drive, because the only reason you would come here is so you can learn how to beat up the bullies who are bullying you. However, these new players that we are targeting our tutorials and stuff with, they probably don’t have the drive - the understanding of why we do these things in the tutorial show us.

You can bring a man a fish, you can even teach him to fish, but what’s the point if he doesn’t even like fish?

I think trying to make people who are trying out a fighting game to understand why it is that makes fighting games so compelling. It may seem silly because it is completely obvious to us why we do it, but not obvious to them. Once people start to understand and possibly get the drive themselves, they will see the need for stuff like hit confirming, because then it’s basically “this allows me to beat them up while they cant beat me up, and i really want to beat them up!” since that is the fundamental reason why do ANYTHING in fighting games. Then once they get the taste for it, they will eventually just come on their own - just like you did - and teach themselves how to beat people up.

The question then remains, exactly *how *do you convey to new players the drive that resides in all of us? How do you make them understand? I wouldn’t be able to tell you right now, because without trying to sound too anime here, it really is something you can’t see; it’s something you can only feel. But if there is something i want you to consider, then consider how did YOU obtain the drive to compete in fighting games? What made you come here? What made you want to get better when you started playing fighting games? What makes you want to compete to be the very best, the best that there ever was? You might have forgotten, but if you do know, then how can you present those answers in a way that will show someone clueless about it? Maybe the girlfriend example wasn’t the best since they aren’t exactly the same. I mean, they are at least trying the game out right? That’s at least a stepping stone, but i feel many people simply fall off the map because they haven’t explored what fighting games are about. Can we do anything to stop that from happening?

Except forcing a character to select a Super/Special can do more harm than good. Not really compare to a character.

Let’s say a character in 3S only has one good Super he should do even if all 3 were available at once and another character had 3 mediocre Supers that overall make him more well rounded if all were available. Is that good? I don’t think so.

I’m not saying 3S is bad because of it, 3S is awesome, love it, just saying maybe the game could be closer in tiers if all Supers were available or maybe it’d be worse. Who knows (dipswitches ftw)? Again, it was their design choice and it is what it is.

what was the thread where mike z said that, i recall the discussion , but i cant remember what thread was

Threads locked now

Imagines Makoto with SAI and II

;_;

I think in the end it all comes down to how well you manage to design that particular system, although that’s always the case. A game that has everything I hate in fighting games (aka Skullgirls) can still be really fun and cool if its done well (aka Skullgirls).

There was actually a mode in some of the home versions of 3S where you had all your supers, but also the longest super bar (but multiple charges, or that’s what I remember), home port only though so I don’t think it got much play.

hmmm, it seems that the discussion that i remember was on another thread
i partially agree with mike on that, because if done poorly, it only leads to the illusion of depth
if said supers/ultras complement the character weakness or strong points, and/or the strategy of the players, is a nice addition
one thing that some people maybe dont know is that the items on chaos breaker / dark awake also add a new super to the characters, you have one super for every item on the game :open_mouth: