So…did any body hear about Phantom breaker? It looks like the developers were heading in the right direction with some of its designs (as far as game play goes).
here a video of the game
After ST, I consider 3S to be the next “tiimeless” game in line. It has been played for 13 years and is still active today. It’s not as popular as it used to be (at least in North America) but it is still being played in tournaments (latest one is Shadowloo Showdown). And it only stagnated down to 3 characters in North America. Japan has low tier specialists for every character. Hell, Higa (Ibuki) and Sugiyama (Necro) got in the Top 4 for Cho Tougeki, about a week ago.
CvS2 died because it takes too damn long. The game can get a little too turtle-friendly at times.
MvC2 died because MvC3 came out. I’m pretty sure if MvC3 never came out, we would still be seeing MvC2 tournaments.
HDR gets no love because the tournament community prefers ST. HDR is an online game so the majority of that community plays at home.
Actually, I stated that I think stuff like Tekken 4 Jin’s JF Laser Scraper is not the right way to reward players for good play. So obviously I’m only thinking about extra damage and maybe cooler animation if you have perfect inputs.
But the ability to execute your tactic is partially reliant on if you can do the move properly and under pressure, that’s why so many people hate SRKs in SF4 in the first place. You can mash them out when you’re getting up, as opposed to the strict window you had in ST.
With the caveat that I can’t read Reno’s article until I get home, just frames should give only a graphical advantage. More after I can read the thing
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Which I already addressed by saying that you should not be able to do new stuff with the new motion that were impossible with the original motion.
OK actually read it, I think there’s a basic problem with the way you’re thinking about this.
You don’t design the system to reward good or bad play, that’s the entirely wrong philosophy. Good play is already rewarded with success, and bad play is already rewarded with failure.
The issue with things like the dp shortcut isn’t that it makes it too easy to be bad, but that it has unintended consequences (notably input overlaps with fireballs and the ducking thing per Tataki).
If you’re using terms like ‘coddle’ at all, you’re on the wrong track.
Just frames for visual effect are just fine, they give an occasional flashy reward, and that's motivating to people. Even extra damage on just frames makes it so you're not maximizing your output without hitting them, and that leads to pointlessly frustrating *required* training mode time, which is exactly the trend fighting games need to break more than any other.All Capcom has to do is require the first input be 6 instead of any direction that includes forward
Did you mean bad play is already rewarded with Ultras? I’m pretty sure you meant bad play is already rewarded with ultras.
No it doesn’t it, it only requires practice if you want to maximize your damage, which is kind of the point. The move still comes out its just not optimal damage because you didn’t do the move correctly. Which is actually a much more beginner friendly choice than not having the move come out at all because you didn’t do the move correctly.
People choose not to do optimal damage all the time, everyone makes choices on how far they are willing to go for damage. If there is a combo that does 25% damage with no hard links and there is a another combo with the same character that does 27% with 4 one frame links in it using the same amount of meter, most players will eat the 2% for the guaranteed damage of the easier combo. It is in no way required to spend hours in training mode learning that combo.
I have not posted in this thread since yesterday night
shoutzula and shoultzula are 2 different people. Trolls are too funny lol. If you want to see if its me posting, just check the join date. They always just remove the L off my name
that was not me, someone is trolling off my account by changing 1 letter, then jacking my AV and my little signature underneath it.
I always get someone doing that in threads like this, its been pretty frequent over the last 2 threads that were similar to this one. I think this is the 3rd time now and it feels like its the same person trying it
Good play is also rewarded by ultras, hilariously. It’s part of the reason it so spectacularly fails at its intended function.
You’re right in that if its a 2% difference in damage, people don’t feel they need to do it, but in that case why have extra damage at all? The goal he’s trying to get is entirely reached by there just being a visual effect to the just frame.
And it makes a big difference mentally, the difference between people feeling rewarded (Hey look it did something that looks cool!) and people feeling punished (I didn’t do it right so I’m not doing as much damage).
I think it’s an important point, there’s a lot of talk about how bad it is to coddle the (fucking) scrubs, but in the same way it’s wrong to give gameplay advantages (coddle, if you will) people that enjoy spending time in training mode.
And again, seriously, in this case the visual reward would be more than enough for people to work like hell to be able to do them anyways... without any disadvantage to the game except extra work for the animator and like 2 lines of code.Finish the damn games before you release them
No game is ever finished.
After Reading Reno’s 4th part of his editorial series on this subject, a few things come to light and conflicts in what we think makes a game good.
VF5 and SCV both are games that rewards the players for learning Just frames or perfect inputs. Like he Mentioned Wolf’s Perfect input Giant Swing grants more damage for it’s precise input, Kage has a few just frames like Sarah or even Eileen which are useful in their own right.
SCV Alpha Pat has alot of just frames and are pretty much required to learn to be effective with said character, this in my opinion creates a sort of balance in which it rewards a player for playing a character who is harder to use initial with more damage or what have you, many will disagree with this but I think it adds diversity in the cast.
Xes, please tell me this training mode tax you’re complaining about is only in regards to execution and necessary to play tight combos and not something like learning what beats what, setups, safe jumps, situations, optimizing damage/meter, corner carry and etc.
you’re not coddling someone if they’re trying to get better in training mode by practicing. That is the opposite of coddling because some is EARNING a reward rather than be given auto tech throw, auto block gems that would of costed money
why was reggie miller allowed to practice 3 pointers in the nba? so he can have one of the best shots in the nba
what was michael jordan allowed to train 12+ hours a day for bball? so he can become the best
what did tiger woods hit balls in the rain? above and beyond in training to be the best
people SHOULD be allowed to train to get better and you don’t want that. You want everyone to have the same tools as michael jordan even though jordan spent decades cultivating those tools through practice. Your philosophy is the most flawed. You don’t understand any of the hard work concepts and with your philosophy, you get characters like 3s chun li and wesker in umvc3. Stupid fucking easy to play and doesn’t take that much skill to perform.
Damdai: I was excited about the release as I felt it was my second chance, having missed ST at it’s most popular. I was still relatively new to ST when HDR came out, so I wasn’t against it as a lot of people were and supported it for a long time.* Eventually though, I began to see how the removal of certain high level techniques and the overall lowering of the execution requirements negatively affected the game.** I love overcoming difficult challenges to the point that they become easy, reaching an exclusive level of play through practice and dedication. Some call it competitive edge. The designers of HDR called them needless barriers and removed them. That may be fine for a casual game, but I don’t agree with that philosophy when it comes to competitive gaming, so I stopped playing HDR. Fortunately there seems to have been an ST revival of sorts, with arcade ST being present at almost every major so far this year.*
To me anyways, its the difference between playing and practicing. The best way to learn safe jumps or what beats what is match experience. Just frames or tight combos on the other hand are almost impossible to learn out of training mode.
Playing a whole bunch of matches is still ‘work’ in one sense, and it still takes substantial effort to improve, but it gives people options on how they want to learn.
And especially we don’t want to be arbitrary about it. Any game is going to eventually have some tight things that you need to discover or train ‘in the lab’, its the nature of the genre. Intentionally designing them in is the mistake.
So short answer, no I don’t think learning counters, setups, safe jumps, etc. is covered under the training mode tax (great term btw, I’m stealing that).
Edit@shoultz
You will always be able to train to get better. That an inescapable part of fighting games, and I absolutely don’t want to take that out.
The difference is adding arbitrary barriers, and giving additional punishments for not training a specific way.
To me, games should be designed so your primary method of skill improvement is playing the games. If people wanna search for a little extra edge, or explore and find something new and unique, more power to them… they make the game better by their efforts.
But let them find things on their own, don’t intentionally seed the game with things that make lab time feel like a base requirement.
You never heard that before? It’s old, I forgot where I first heard it.
I edited my post, was hoping I edited it before you replied.
Standard Xes argument
Xes; “Some statement”
Other person; “Rebuttal of statement”
Xes; “No that’s not I meant at all”
I’ve been trying to think about what other games actually were welcoming to casual fans but still had expert players, and I think that it goes back to a time when there were so many to choose from in the Arcade (1994-98). Developers would still make their money because new players would gravitate towards those they liked and keep trying to improve, and the more technical ones (like ST) would hang around longer because that’s where the most serious competition was.
Even those more casual games (Alpha, X-Men CotA, Fatal Fury 2, Samurai Shodown) had spinoffs which led to even better sequels and amalgamations. I actually hated the change of X-men and MSH to the VS series, but it was good for the genre at least.
Now every console game has to be the Be All End All fighter or it’s not going to get reviewed the same way or bought the same way. I do think Skullgirls is a step in the right direction: It’s got an incredibly low price which doesn’t mean you have to gamble with your hard earned cash, much like arcades used to. Even better, instead of DLC existing to fleece you, it will serve as the expansion if the game sells well.