why would leave the door so wide open, a scammy company like capcom is allowed to waltz in and take advantage of the system?
DLC ATM does have pay to win shit in it. Capcom WANTS that. They blatantly advertised it for sfxt without any shame. When you leave the door open for DLC characters, pay to win is a natural course because it offers the most incentive for your money and for the company.** DLC characters and pay to win go hand in hand.**
If you made servbot as a dlc character for mvc2, who the fuck would buy the worst character in the game? they would of wasted time\money developing that character. Good characters stand to make more money and therefore, the better the character the more money is potentially available. If DP was DLC in vanilla mvc3, everyone would of bought that shit. That is what I’m getting @. The difference in player skill should be earned, not bought
SG is really weird exception. I naturally hate the idea of DLC characters but the game is so cheap that as long as it doesn’t surpass 60$ total for all of them including the game, it wouldn’t bother me. Its only when I paid 60$ for a game and then DLC characters that are god like are released that I have to spend more money in order to worthy as a tournament competitor.
Gotta say, DLC characters is only ‘buying an advantage’ if the new characters are better than the old ones.
If MvC3 Dark Phoenix or Wesker were DLC characters, there’d be an absolute reason to call foul, capcom would be making you pay for the best characters. On the other hand what they actually gave as DLC characters were Shuma Gorath and Jill (yeah I know some people think Jill is totally OP), and so its kind of a different deal.
I’ve kind of come to the conclusion that DLC characters are bad anyways, so many games now are sold on the promise of upcoming DLC. Yeah, that’s partially just how the industry works now, but still…
People should be able to buy and enjoy a game as it is, not in the hopes that the developer is going to follow through and make the game complete at some unspecified time in the future. It’s only a matter of time until the FGC gets seriously burned on this.
That’s still a crouch tech OS, just instead of crouching normal you get a throw. IIRC Mike wanted people to commit to teching or blocking low , didn’t want an option to cover blocking the low AND teching which you can get if you just delay.
Crouch Teching in 3S was weak because crLP could be beat by high and low parry. Players aimed to stand tech.
well, I wouldn’t like it but I understand where is he coming from. His game is only 15$ as is, its a very cheap game to play. If mike Z didn’t exceed 45$ in total for his characters even if they were top tier, I wouldn’t have a problem with it because it would be the price of 1 full game. It would be no different to me than buying mvc3 with vanilla Dark Phoenix in it. ** both games are 60$ with power characters in it.**
now if mike Z’s game end up charging 70$ for extra characters, 85$ in total with the game, and there were super powered characters in it, then yea, I would be very mad @ that concept. He’s surpassed the price of 1 full game and now DLC is being used as pay to win.
what you’re arguing is that its ok for big developers to charge you full price, then also charge you for DLC characters on top of that and that shit leaves a bad taste in my mouth. It leaves the door open for pay to win and if you don’t think it will, just look @ sfxt. They’re already trying to do it.
I’d say @ some point, DLC characters is fine. Maybe like 3 years, if that, of a games release. That way the game can survive but the companies will NEVER follow this approach. They will undoubtedly try to release as many characters as they can get away with and they will all be strong and you will see this shit every 6 months if not sooner. If you leave the door open for big companies, they will never do it fair.
Hmm, so DLC characters promote bad design unless the game is Skullgirls and then it is acceptable because the price is low enough? Odd.
It looks like Mortal Kombat is still going strong, even with DLC characters, and it doesn’t appear like those DLC characters are stronger than the rest of the cast.
Personally, I feel that DLC characters are awesome, and I welcome constant updates that keep the game fluid and fresh. Starcraft and Guild Wars PVP have undergone dozens of updates over the years, and those games certainly do have “masters”. We live in an era where developers can continue to work on a game and continue enriching the experience after the game is in the wild, and that could mean exciting things for the future of the fighting game genre.
SG is a really weird area. I hate the notion of DLC characters but the game is so cheap that as long as he didn’t surpass 60$ in total for the price of his game + ALL the DLC characters, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. No different than buying a 60$ fighting game from gamestop
its only when you’ve paid full price already and the developers start releasing DP vanilla level characters that are capable of winning majority of tournaments that I have a problem.
To me it feels like SkG is a victim of its circumstances. You can’t sell a Live/PSN game for much more than what they charged, and what they charged isn’t enough to remotely cover costs. It feels like they need their dlc model to work, or they’re in serious trouble (not that I’m privy to their financials obviously :p)
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I do have a problem, I can’t think of any company that has released Dark Phoenix level characters as DLC except maybe Freddy in MK, and he was aggressively patched. We really need to focus on what’s actually happening, not on what could happen.
don’t get me wrong, I hate that shit too. was not happy about buying mvc3\umvc3 so fast back to back and if I want to play marvel in tournaments, I have to update. They already got tournament players by the balls with all these steady updates to the games you have to go out and buy. I don’t want them with a knife @ my dick basically saying if you don’t buy our super powered DLC characters, you won’t have a shot to compete. While its not like this, it very COULD be
DLC characters can be both good and bad. You’re naming the good, I’m naming the bad. Have some companies done it right? yes. Have some companies done it bad? also yes.
there are no laws governing the ethics of this shit. Its all up to the company on how they want to approach things. Others will do it right, others will do it wrong. Most of our tournament fighting games for 20 years have been Capcom titles, and for the big tournaments they revolve around Capcom titles. For our specific, scene its a bad thing IMO because capcom will not use it responsibly. For other fighting games, they may do it right but Capcom never will. Its too easy to make money off a system like that, wayyy tooooo easyyyyy. All you have to do is make the best character in the game as DLC and boom, everyone has to buy it now if you want a competitive chance.
and for a company that has showed no restraint to money grubbing tactics, that door can’t be opened for them
it already has happened with sfxt, its here. Its just the community said fuck that shit and it was ignored but now people are arguing that the game is so bland that the gems are needed to make the game better
the door is open. This time we said no, but will we say no the next time?
No one good mashes tech. They stagger and do it late so you block the low or tech after the grab. You’re only changing it from instead of a low, you get a throw. If you want people still be able to hold down back and retained the ability to tech throws, that your choice.
I’m just saying you’re not removing the OS, you’re still able to block low and retain the ability to tech throws unless downback explicitly gives up the ability to tech throws, which Skullgirls did: db/d/df+throw won’t tech. Throws really do beat blocking since it forces you deal with low/throw instead of a catch all option.
Hold on, DLC characters are only “pay to win” if the price point will eventually exceed $60, which is the price of a new game in the U.S.? If you lived in Australia, would the grand total for “pay to win” be higher because games are much more expensive? How about if there was an 8 person tournament, and all 8 players earned more than $100k a year, does the “pay to win” ceiling become higher because they can all easily afford $80 for a game and DLC? How about if 7 players were millionaires by a wide margin, and the 8th needed government assistance, would it become “pay to win” because of the 8th player, or does it matter if the Affluent Seven didn’t use the DLC character?
I’m not trying to come off as completely snarky, but I do want to illustrate how artificial and arbitrary this distinction you’re promoting actually is. It appears as though you came to the conclusion first (DLC from larger companies is bad, but SkG is good), and then went all Pretzel Logic (great song, btw) to make it work.
I was alarmed at first, I made a topic asking about it here when BB announced their DLC character plans. I didn’t like the idea of finding away to force competitive players to buy DLC because of how important characters are.
I don’t think it’s all bad. I bought the DLC character for KoF XIII. It’s still less than $60 + tax with them I think and there were to fix bugs, which would’ve had to wait until the next disc version normally for the characters and fixes and probably cost another $40 for it but I got it for like < $20. I’ll definitely buy a KoF update if they stop playing around and design the game to use GGPO netcode.
Skullgirls, I wouldn’t care if cost >$60 with game and all DLC, it would still be a better deal than $60 initial release + $40 disc release a year later, especially if what they have planned to add free pans out. The hours I’ll have logged in by time the first character is done will be absurd hopefully.
I bought mvc3 for 60$, I bough sf4 for 60$. kof 13 is 60$, bb was 60$, t6 60$
for 60$, you should have every tool available to you as any top 8 player would. Its the undefined universal standard fighting games have. for 60$, you have the same game as daigo\justin. Not 1 thing less or more. for 60$, Viscant the world champion and I are playing the same game and it doesn’t exceed that. The only thing that separates us is player skill @ that point
it doesn’t matter if your game wants to piece it out as long as all the tools in the game doesn’t cost more than 60$. If your game wants to do 60$ retail @ game stop or 60$ total retail through xbl\psn+DLC characters, then both games have given you all the tools you needed for 60$. Its the same thing honestly but I still don’t like it. If mike Z wen’t over 60$ total for his game, I would be pretty upset by that.
its only when games charge you for full retail then start compounding top tier “gems” on top of that price that its a problem for me.
**you can pay 60$ for sfxt then pay for DLC gems and now someone has just outspent you and gained an advantage. I believe in sports they call it a salary cap. This is to ensure that someone can’t simply spend their way to victory and it works. 60$ is the standard fighting game “salary cap”. **
It’s kind of silly to put an arbitrary limit on it though, if people don’t feel they’re getting the value out of the additional content they buy, then ultimately that’s their problem, not the publishers.
i didn’t put that # on it, it was like an undefined rule that popped up somehow. For 60$, developers were giving you access to the full game and its been like this since the saturn days.
people can have additional content, why does it have to affect the quality of the game? why can’t DLC be aesthetics rather than game play components like characters\gems? and if someone didn’t get enough value with the game i’ll them him\her the same thing srk tells me, don’t fucking play it!!
I’m not 100% against DLC because there is a time and place for it but I played mvc2 for 10 years w\o any DLC. I could of played it for another 10 if the tournament scene hanged around. ST players have been playing their game for 15+ years w\o any DLC. same with 98\02 players, 10+ years. Those game remained tournament viable for over a decade w\o any DLC.
So I got a copy of a game on sale for $40, so that means I can still buy $20 of DLC before I am paying to win. Also, all Aussies have to pay to win because their games are more expensive.
… and what if a developer comes to the same conclusion that hardcore wargame publishers did, where they realized that they could make a game that is very niche and compensate by charging $80 for their product? Well, that entire game will be pay to win, because it cost more than you personally paid for some other games.
The pricing structure popular with MOBAs must be completely pay to win, because to buy all the characters in LoL is would certainly cost far more than $60.
See? When we apply this rule across the board, it quickly becomes silly. In my opinion, the more reasonable and logical approach is, “DLC options in competitive games are odious when they give players unfair advantages based on their willingness to purchase.” New characters are not necessarily unfair advantages, regardless of price point. If the design of DLC characters is sound, then there isn’t an inherit issue simply because the characters are DLC. Requiring the highest levels of competitors to purchase content in order to be current isn’t outrageous from my perspective. If the cost of DLC is unduly burdensome, then you might want to consider another hobby.
I am not aware of a competitive video game that requires a ludicrous amount of investment in DLC in order to maintain even competition. Even Capcom, which is leaning very hard on DLC with their recent games, is not charging a berserk amount to stay current.
Edit: Xie, don’t get me started with the Steely Dan. That’ll be a derail from which I will never recover.