Nah, all the ochios have the same range, although the fierce one does more damage as well as stun. The different strengths of spd do have different ranges, though, and you can test that for yourself pretty easily in training mode.
I do not believe this is true. :shake: I have not experienced this in ST. I feel that all the SPD have the same range. I could be wrong, I am no expert, human, and make mistakes. I have tested this in training mode, used it in game play, and not found any correlation in button strength to grabbing distance in ST for the 360+ P.
There easily could have been a set up I missed, or something I over looked that could have better shown the differences in range. Like I said I am no expert. :clown:
However, my statement is also supported through NKI’s ST page. The throw data for “Zangief’s SPD,” does not change with the button used. It illustrates the difference in range with the Kick 360s and button strength, but shows there are none with 360 + Punch.
Check it out for yourself! :tup: http://nki.combovideos.com/
The button strength does however, change the amount of damage done by the 360+p and the amount of recovery on a whiff. There are marginal differences in recovery for the damage gained.
Respectively:
[LIST]
[]Jab = 25% Damage/ 21 Frames Recovery
[]Strong = 28% Damage/ 23 Frames Recovery
[*]Fierce = 30% Damage/ 25 Frames Recovery:
[/LIST]
This is verified in YBH. I believe these damage % are based on normal characters (I.e. Ryu), and does not apply to Rasin’s throw damage character rules. (See “ST in the house” thread.)
IMHO, for what it is worth, if there is no differnce in range, go for the fierce SPD every thime.
Well I almost always drum strong-fierce when I do spd and I think most people do that, so it’s not really a big deal. But I remember wondering about this a couple years ago and going into training mode to test it by pushing my opponent into the corner and then by using the space between Gief’s feet and the opposing character’s feet and by looking at the background, trying out the ranges of the move move by jumping neutrally up, doing the motion in the air, and releasing punch just as I hit the ground to make I’m not accidentally walking forward. And I’m pretty sure I found jab to have a slightly better range. Heh as long as I’ve been playing Gief, I’ve heard people on SRK and in real life argue about whether the different spd strengths have different ranges.
I’ve also looked at NKI’s translation of that data and been confused by the listing of all the spds as having the same range, especially, as you point out, considering that the different ranges of the atomic suplexes are listed. But all of Gief’s normal throws are lumped into one category as well despite the fact that some have noticeably different ranges (particularly roundhouse grab), so I don’t think the fact that spd only has one range listing is conclusive.
Many good points. As I said, I am not a authority. I was honestly bringing it for more a piont of discussion. It doesn’t matter much either way honestly. :looney:
All that really matters to me is if I want to have your character “Spun uncontrollably skyward… Driven brutally into the ground!” That your character does get “Spun uncontrollably skyward… Driven brutally into the ground!”
If that makes sense… :wtf:
The different strength SPDs definitely have different ranges. Even the difference between Jab and Fierce SPD is very slight (about one cr.Jab’s pushback at most), but it is there.
Here is a bit of info that might be surprising to some. I have only seen this one time and one time EVER!!! I had a stored ochio… the opponent came up and tried a strong throw with Honda, i some how( while in the throw animation where Honda is grabbing you across the chest the put you to the ground (this is a regular grab not the oichio). ) must have reversal oichoed the grab after the animation for the grab had already started and even while i was in the throw animation itself so this was either a glitch or if timed correctly you can Never be thrown while stored. I would love to duplicate this again.
Which characters do Honda crossup when doing the ochio on them when they are in the corner?
What is the counter move to beat deejay meaty combo from behind ?
My initial reaction was “nobody,” and after testing it again really fast, I’m unable to replicate an oicho where the opponent starts in the corner and Honda ends up on the opposite side.
Maybe(?) you got confused by the situations when the opponent appears to be in the corner but is actually a half-step away from it. It’s possible to do it then and end up on the opposite side, because there’s some space between their body and the corner. I know sometimes I’ve done an oicho in such situations and have not been sure which side I’m going to end up on because I wasn’t sure if they were cornered or not. :wonder:
Just making sure, but you’re talking about when you get knocked down and DeeJay goes for a meaty, crossup j.MK as you’re standing up?
I don’t know. :bgrin: I have done stuff like LP headbutt which whiffs entirely but has enough invincibility to get you away (kinda like Chun’s Bird Kick). I also believe any of the down-up specials can get you away 'cause they’re invincible, but I believe you can get punished from behind if DeeJay reacts quickly enough. I don’t have time to test this stuff for sure right now, but hopefully someone more knowledgeable can help you out.
Yes, from standing up after knock down with the annoying deejay meaty move…
hate those sickening move… lol
If the opponent is all the way in the corner, ochio doesn’t cross up. Raisin’s guess that your opponent wasn’t all the way to the corner sounds spot on to me.
You should just block DeeJay’s crossup jumping forward. You can buttslam out of it, but it’s not worth the risk because if you successfully do a reversal buttslam you either go free or get punished for it, and if you mess up on the reversal buttslam you get comboed, probably dizzed, and then the round is pretty much over. The best way to deal with that situation is to block and immediately store an ochio and start drumming the punches, so that if DeeJay wanted to go for a throw or if he messes up on his poke strings you’ll get a free throw, but if he successfully poke strings out of harm’s way, whatever, not a big deal.
It’s really stupid for DeeJay to close enough on Honda to go for a crossup jumping forward. DeeJay does much better against Honda by keeping him out with max outs, upkicks, and various normals than he does if he tries to get in; he’ll probably win if he keeps Honda out, but he’ll probably lose if Honda gets in.
Thanks, I knew there was a good reason why people rarely try to cross Honda up in high-level matches. Am I correct in assuming this pretty much extends to all opponents fighting Honda and not just DeeJay?
When and how do you store the oicho, during the blockstun of blocking the initial crossup jump attack? That takes pretty fast input, no?
Meh, it’s not hard to get an ochio motion in there, you have enough time. You can buffer the ochio motion into your blocking, do the motion once you’ve started blocking, whatever.
It’s stupid for most characters to get close to Honda, especially characters that do better when they keep him out. The characters Honda beats usually want to get close to him, but not necessarily to throw him. Gief and Hawk want to tick throw him, but that’s fine for them because their throw ranges are larger than Honda’s ochio range.
crossing honda up is suicide due to the ochio. block then oichio. if it misses you block.
i tried having a bash with hinda on my xbox copy of AE and i couldn’t get the stored ochio to work. i’d do HCB , hold d/b for a second and the release the punches and nothing would happen. WHat am i doing wrong? i could get them ove to come out normally
Did you pick old ST Honda? you have to hold the back button and hit start when you select super turbo mode, to get the true ST versions with stored supers/moves, you’ll hear a different chime when you do this correctly.
thanks for that footsy, works a charm!
I went to DBQ BBQ the other weekend. I had only been to a few tournaments previously, and this was the first one that I did fairly well in.
I had a great round of Honda Dic matches against NKI that I learned an immense amount from. Which I’d like to break down and talk about but I’ll do that later, since none of them were taped. There are some matches that you can watch though and tell me what you think.
There were some situations that I ran into that I wasn’t really sure how to handle. I’ve watched them a lot and have a pretty good idea of what I could have done different or things to try but the more input I could get the better.
[media=youtube]n0A8ME2eCAM[/media]
[media=youtube]DGw3xWAvaRY[/media]
I’m not sure quite what I was trying to do with that first buttsmash.
At about 0:20 I was trying to jab headbutt when she was flipping over me. I guess that probably isn’t a good idea since I’d loose my charge. I’m not sure what the hitbox for the headbutt is either whether it would hit behind me or not. I figure the best option is to just try to block and oichio when she lands.
I got kind of greedy going for a third throw in the corner, and I was half expecting the super, would a buttsmash on wake up been my only/best option to avoid it?
I had some timing issues in the second match and wasn’t sure quite what to do when she was flipping over me again at the end.
The second match he played a more defensive and gave me a little harder time. I still could have come out on top though if I had made a few better choices and was just more familiar with what to do in certain situations I think.
I’d be happy for your input.
I’m no expert, but I can offer some observations:
Above all else, STORE YOUR OICHO whenever possible! A good place for this is in video 2, 0:40-0:43 seconds. Once Chun countered your jump in attempt, she moved in for some c.jabs. You have to do the stored oicho motion in the air and hold db. Since she was so close, you could’ve used your stored oicho and gained control of the match. Another good place you couldve used this is at about 1:00 in video 1. You sumo splashed and landed just short of hitting her, but close enough to where you could’ve used stored oicho and taken over the match
Another things to work on is crossing up with a belly flop-> stored oicho. Again, unless Chun is charging down, she has no reliable anti air if shes on the ground and you’re about to attack from the air. She has up kicks, but if you can get in a postiion where she isnt charging down, then bellyflop->stored oicho -> c.jab->oicho her to death.
EDIT: Ok, maybe she does have a reliable anti-air with s.mk or s.rh. Anybody want to confirm this?
I’m not sure if this is possible, but in the last seconds of match 2, when she had you in the corner, and was hitting you several times when you were blocking, you might have been able to interrupt those with a medium sumo splash, kinda like ryu would with a DP.
For the flip kick, I would just hold downback and block it. Then maybe medium sumo splash/oicho/c.jab mixup depending on your gut reaction.
Dont jump over her fireballs, but block them instead. Even though it still pushes you away, she cant do them forever. Keits knew that because of Honda’s big ass hitbox, it’d be easier to hit you with them. Honda seems to have to jump earlier to avoid them. Knowing this, Keits buffered the lightning legs in the fireball recovery animation, and it worked well. If she does throw fireballs for what seems like forever, then shes getting predictable and you can bellyflop -> stored oicho her.
If you must jump, try to make it so that either your j.mk/j.rh hits her so that you can gain a little more hang time and hopefully clear the fireball, or, to down lk to reduce your hitbox. Store the oicho throw as well and if you see an opportunity, use it.
If you jump at an enemy but when you land you arent close enough to do stored oicho, and you anticipate this (through practice), keep tapping mp so when you land, you can do the moving HHS and push her back some.
Hope this helps
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Ok, now I have 2 questions; both involve cross ups:
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Lets say Honda is on the left, opponent is on the right. When honda crosses up someone with d.mk (bellyflop), he can store the oicho, but initially he is facing right. But, when he lands, now he is facing left.
So my question is this: When do you start storing the oicho? When is is still facing right, or when you switch directions and face left? When do you exceute it as well? Does negative edging help any?
Posted by ehonda
crossing honda up is suicide due to the ochio. block then oichio. if it misses you block.
Similar question, except now someone is crossing up honda. When do you store the oicho? While honda is facing right? or when honda turns around and is facing left? When do you excecute it? Does negative edging help any?
Jude,
From the right range forward buttsmash can counter almost anything Chun does, including her Super if you time it right. But if she fakes you out and you whiff it you will get punished.
Warrior,
I always do the Ochio in the direction that Honda will be facing AFTER the cross-up. That has always worked for me. Kind of like if someone crosses you up while your charging for a headbutt in one direction if you flip your joystick to the other side at the same time Honda turns around (goes from facing left to facing right for example), then you’ll keep your charge.
And you should always negative edge the Ochio, I now almost always negative edge all three punch buttons then release them one after the other (kinda like negative edge and piano at the same time, thanks for that tip Ultradavid!). That way you’ll just end up blocking if you mess up or they reversal.