Deejay can just do runaway Max Out > j.RH (which stops pretty much everything) all day and it gives Honda hell - RH Sumo Splash is probably the worst thing you could attempt in that match-up… as for Chun, what self-respectable Chun player is going to throw a fireball anywhere but full screen (or during a block string) anyway?
If both characters are still throwing them at mid-screen or whatever, they deserve to lose.
Like I said, if people want to keep using RH Sumo Splash as a viable way of getting past projectiles, that’s cool - i’ve already covered what I think are the better ways of dealing with projectiles in a previous post.
actually in the DJ scenario i would allow the Jump RH to hit me then just when he think ill do it again block the Maxout then hit him when he lands with F HButt or block then jab headbutt into a med splash. No Legit Honda player is going to be doing RH smashes from from more than mid screen anyways so that is pointless to even mention. This is all up close and personal RH smahses. The timing of the RH smash means EVERYTHING. I do agree med is 100x better than RH, RH smash has its purpose though.
Deejay can throw a Max Out then see what your going to do and counter if needed, no legit Deejay is going to throw a projectile in a bad position then blindly j. RH in vain hope your trying to get over it with a Splash.
As for the “No Legit Honda player is going to be doing RH smashes from more than mid screen anyways” statement - I 100% agree, but it’s shocking the amount of Honda players who do it out of pure desperation. I’m trying to help put learning Honda’s on the right path but making it clear RH Splash is an awful anti-projectile strategy at high levels and is only good for some crossover trickery and a couple of mid-screen strats.
DJ cannot counter if Honda anticipates the max out. if its done on reaction then yes DJ can counter. Almost Everything becomes guess when you are playing top tier players.
This match up i give a slight 6-4 or 5.5-4.5 advantage to Honda. The main problems Honda has vs Claw are Claws jumping speed and is mid screen cross up game. First thing to know when fighting claw…Get in the corner as fast as you can. If you get caught in the middle of the screen, you more than likely will take chip damage from the crossup walldives, enough to put Claw on the run and you want to have a lead vs claw not be chasing him all over the board. you must make Claw come to you. (If he gets the lead it will be extremely difficult to get it back.) Sit in that corner and splash or headbutt every jump in he attempts. another trick is to block then ochio the jumpin. you may notice that you cannot headbutt claws jumps most of the time. This is due to the speed of his jumps.
The Air game:. Honda actually fairs quite well in this. Jump back jab stops just about all of the wall dives. Anything off of the wall jumpback jab. if he goes off of his wall sit and head butt it. If he tries to go off of your wall you must use jump back jab to prevent Claw from going of off your wall and causing you to lose your charge. if you are caught not charging or with cement feet use standing fierce.
The ground game: Honda does well but beware of the rolls, sometimes they can hit all of Hondas ground moves. Hands is a nice way to get him out of his ground game. Another danger is the full screen headbutt. Most expert Claw players invite you to do full screen HB then they can do a single back flip then throw you then RUN! Scrolling the screen also meses up Claw so doing repeated Hands (even if they miss) can screw his wall game up.
This is one of Hondas best matchups. The air game should not come into play at all in this matchup b/c Honda does not need to Jump or be in the air at all. Honda must beware of a few things against Hawk. The first being his short dive into DP. nice trick easily stopped by either Hbutt after the Dp or hands. Hbutt the dive itself(if in range). if not in range. use hands or safe low jab. Hawk is unable to use Far dives that will hit deep or high. Headbutt stops this. Headbutt stops just about everything that Hawk has to offer. WARNING DO NOT GET KNOCKED DOWN! Get to the air if Hawk is able to get in after he knocks you down. Jumping back with out hitting any buttons is preferred it tightens your hitboxes and you become tougher to hit. if not Hit fierce or RH very Early. Get in the corner and sit there, headbutt every jumpin and hands often to build meter. If things get up-close and personal Ochio. I cannot emphasize this more 1. DO NOT GET KNOCKED DOWN!
2. Head butt ALL jump ins.
3 Do Hands often to keep him out of typhoon range.
OK enough with the easy straight forward matches, LOL. I want to hear some other Honda players opinions on the DJ and Chun match-ups. Those are the ones I find the most challenging.
The reasoning behind posting the winnable matches for Honda first is b/c if you cant win those matches then there is no point in trying to win at the difficult ones. I will be posting chun and/or DJ within the next two weeks.
Hello - I’m new to SRK, but not to SFII. Thing is, I’m used to HF from the arcade and super from the snes. I finally decided to move to super turbo via AE due to the release of HD. (lotta acronyms huh?) I of course noticed right away that the normal moves have some differences. (as I did “back in the day” but I seldom played ST back then so it didn’t matter in those days).
First the crouching fierce. I noticed that it’s a double palm most of the time now. Seems to lose range and gain a second hit. Also noticed that “classic” cr. HP sometimes comes out. Question: what governs when the “old” move comes out? Also is the new move an improvement or a nerf? (so far I don’t like it)
Also noticed that his standing roundhouse kicks up more often now, I think it did that when close in turbo and super, but it seems you need to be alot farther away to make the sweep come out now, is this correct or am I wrong on this one? Again, if changed is it good or bad?
Other major one is that his splash needs a down command to come out whereas m kick would always come out as a splash as long as you werent jumping straight up. this change is clearly good as it gives more options - nothing is taken away.
Finally the cr. med and short kicks have a completely different move - he doesn’t crouch low and sideways and flip his foot out sideways like he used to. Is the old move gone? And lastly, is this once again a positive change or a negative?
Any help getting me adjusted is appreciated - I know he has a command throw now and am working on incorperating it also - hopefully I can offer up some decent competition before too long…
Yes i was a little disappointed with the changes to Honda’s regular moves. The old Cr fierce now has to be done while standing. If its done the other way you get the double pump.
Another significant change was his standing fierce which now has random outcomes. Your opponent must be close for this to come out. otherwise its just a straight jab.
his old cr forward and short must be done while standing now basically the switched the standing with cr moves. It gives him more options and a better ground game. His RH hasn’t really changed that much you generally either hold forward or back to get the standing sweep.
Cr. Fierce is the (mostly useless) double hit punch. Standing fierce gives you the move that LOOKS like the cr.Fierce from HF but it DOESN’T KNOCK DOWN. It is a definite change for the worse. You only get his Fierce chop move when the opponent is close (less reliable to use as anti-air now because sometimes you get the old cr.punch instead of the chop).
Stading Fierce gives you the upward kick, if you want the sweep you need to push towards or back + Roundhouse. He also doesn’t have his Short and Forward knockdown sweeps from Super and HF. His close short move can be cancelled into the fierce headbutt to give Honda a real non-chain combo finally. His close Short also makes a nice tick into the Ochio throw (cr.Jab is better but Short is nice to mix it up every now and then).
Learn to use the Ochio! It is his best upgrade in ST.
N Honda and O Honda both have advantages in terms of their normals.
O Honda’s crouching fierce is really good because it’s his quickest sweep and his standing fierce chop is really good as an antiair and to counterpoke some normals. His crouching short and forward have awesome hitboxes and can totally stuff things like headbutt and Blanka ball. His standing jab also has one of the best hitboxes in the game because almost his whole hand can’t be attacked even though it hits the opponent, so you can play great up-close games on opponents’ wakeups; you can stand at max range and do standing jab as Ryu wakes up, and if he blocks, you get a tick, and if he does dp, it goes right through your hand and you can do free damage. Also, his far standing kicks all sweep and have different speeds and ranges, making for some nice mixups and whiffs-into-walkups.
N Honda’s crossup game is way better, since his crossup roundhouse is one of the best in the game. I also feel like his jumping non-splash forward is a little beefier. His standing and crouching kicks are more intuitively arranged, which is nice, and the hitboxes are pretty much the same where he shares animations with O Honda. His far standing jab is pretty similar to O Honda’s, but it’s not quite as safe. His normals are also more cancelable and combo-friendly. And actually for some reason I’m blanking on this, but one of them has a better jumping short hitbox; one doesn’t hit on the front of Honda’s attack, only on the bottom, but right now I can’t recall which. Heh, that’s annoying.
The main reason people generally agree that N Honda is better than O Honda is that it’s a lot easier for N Honda to get in. He has controllable neutral jumping fierce, a beefier hitbox on his buttslam, and rush slaps, which makes getting in way less of a chore. N Honda also has the command grab, which is obviously a plus. But even without the command grab, O Honda is still a beast once he gets in; his standing sweeps, crouching fierce, crouching short and forward, safe standing jab, walking slaps, and fierce grab/standing fierce option select are really beastly against some characters. They’re both good characters. I usually go with N Honda, especially against characters I need to get in on, but in certain matchups, like against Blanka, O Honda is definitely my sumo of choice.
Yeah, you can basically walk forward randomly slapping on the jab button and mixing it up with the occasional standing fierce/fierce throw option select against some characters. Oh yeah, standing jab to standing fierce is vicious against some characters. Like, against DeeJay, O Honda’s standing fierce actually beats DeeJay’s upkicks at the right range, which also happens to be still within O Honda’s fierce throw range, so needless to say if you get a standing jab on DeeJay, you can go for some really serious standing fierce/fierce throw option select, more jabs, slaps, etc mixup games. Except, try getting in against DeeJay with O Honda, not the easiest thing!
Wow! Thanks, that was sooo useful. I suspected that O cr. fierce was better, but didn’t know that jump roundhouse had more crossup mojo since it looks the same. Also didn’t know that I can zone old jab to be safe vs. dp! I knew it was pretty safe, but not THAT good! I also noticed that old cr fierce animation does come out, but only on a standing fierce at medium range. Old st fierce comes out at close range, but loses some distance due to what was originally the crouch move coming out when farther out.
I totally welcome the rush slaps - being able to keep a charge while advancing is no small thing.
It will be interesting to see what aspects of each make it into HD remix
Thanks you once again for the O Honda vs. N Honda perspective - it helped alot. Now off to practice!
This match is one of the more difficult ones for Honda to Handle. The speed of Sagats Tigers are formidable. Also Sagats jumping RH is difficult to get around. Your reactions must be at their best. The air Game: Honda Jumping towards Fierce works well as well as his early jumping jab. Sagats jumping RH can keep you at bay through out the match. Timing a headbutt after the RH retracts till when they hit the ground is not recommended.
Ground game: You MUST keep constant pressure on Sagat so he cannot set up his tigers. His Tigers in reality are not that difficult to get around. Jumping over the slow high ones or crouching under the fast high ones make them worthless against Honda. The ones you have to worry about are the low ones. Believe it or not the slow low Tigers are Jail Bait. If go over these from full screen you will be DPed and if you go over the fast ones you need to almost guess at what is being throw unless you are full screen and the slow tigers may trade anyways b/c Honda can land on the slow low tigers after Honda Hits Sagat. Reacting and guessing correctly is key. So i do not recommend going over low tigers to much, unless they are just throwing constant low tigers then keep them honest… So how do you keep on the pressure? Constant Hands as well as St. RH. if you can link these together you can keep a constant barrage of hits going ( not a combo). E.g. hands - Rh -hands -Rh repeat. Hondas Butt smash has very little use unless you have him trapped. If you do do it you must execute it early so that J.RH does not snuff it out.
Throws: Normal throws work great vs OG sagat but if you face off against new sagat use the oichio when in close as much as possible.
Starting off the match many Sagat players will start with a J.RH. or a Tiger or a tiger knee into DP. If they do the latter then punish them as the DP is landing. if the J.RH do a standing Rh to trip them. if they catch on to this, pause just a second and make them guess at what is coming. As for how you can start… Hands, St.RH, Block, Cr. Jab. or if you can guess a tiger then use Frw Buttsmash.
Another trick is to do Short butt smashes over the low tigers as well as his short squat jump over them.
I have a dumb question about the Ochio throw. When I tick into Ochio (usually off a cr.jab or jump in splash) I usually use negative edge and release all three punch buttons one after the other. Does this make the tick “safe” against reversals like it does when T.Hawk neg. egdes the Stormhammer after a tick? Or am I just better off just piano-ing the buttons to make sure I get the Ochio off?
Yep, negative edging makes it safe because there’s no whiff animation. If the opponent does a reversal attack, you’ll block, and if they don’t, you’ll throw them. The only thing that can beat it is a reversal throw, but that’s only really an issue against Gief, Hawk, and another Honda. When I go for crouching jab into ochio as my opponent is waking up, I make sure I’m out of my opponent’s reversal normal throw range and then roll from toward to down, press jab then strong-fierce (for a crouching jab with strong/fierce buffered in), continue rolling to down and down-back, and then let go of the buttons going fierce then strong then jab. I do fierce first because fierce ochio does huge stun, enough so that two ochios in a row will probably stun your opponent, so it’s best to give it preference.
I know Fierce Ochio does more stun but do any of them have different ranges? I know ST 'Gief players claim the different SPD’s have different ranges, not just different damages. I’ve never heard of either one being confirmed (i need to get a copy of the Yoga Hyper book, LOL).