What top players are “inconsistent” at pianoing hands? I never understood how people find it difficult. Be glad you don’t play Viper I guess.
Yeeeeah I was just gonna say, even I’m consistent with this, and I am by no means a top player. Takes a bit of practice but eventually it’s just muscle memory like everything else
i honestly wanna see j.mp juggle. gives more use to the guessing game that is U1.
I have concerns over the U2.
Before I could use the 720 motion and end in forward so it would have a little extra range to land the U2.
But ending with back motion this will no longer be possible and put me out of range possibly.
There were a few times that I’d do a normal Oichio throw so wonder if that solves that problem. Just have to wait and see I suppose.
Eh…
I guess they feel two Honda’s in the Evo final is too many 
It’s not going to make me suck worse against Chun or Dhalsim… They (FOR ME) are 7-3 fights. The other player has to REALLY screw up for me to pull that crap out.
Trust me, i am not mad, I’m just asking for a little more advice than the obvious. I appreciate your comments, but I was really asking for any advice to use at a high level of play. These little unpredictable things do not work against guile because he has an answer for almost all of it. Fadc’ing your hhs is the lowest level crap that never works against real tournament players. Im getting it though, this match is just unwinnable.
@Mr.Hylton: After an oicho there is nothing that works. You cannot do a neutral safe jump at all after an oicho.
Here is a write up in their guile thread that could maybe lead to more discussion:
"E. HONDA
- Latest tier chart: 6-4
- Popular opinion: Easy match? possible easiest matchup
- General Gameplan: Honda has poor options for dealing with fireballs. Exploit this.
- Crumple type: A-X
- Useful option selects: None
- Useful AA?s: c.hp, s.mk, s.mp, s.hp, c.mp (tags his nj.hp), flashkick, df.hk, close s.hk, j.hk, air throw, U2
- Ideal range: ¾ screen.
- Guaranteed punishes: hp headbutt > U2
- Effective counters / pro tips / FAQ:
----> Counter: Buttslams confuse a lot of new players. You can hit them clean with a very early c.hp, but a more damaging and easier option is using close s.hk. All else fails, focus and dash out.
----> Pro tip: Never go on the offensive. Honda wants you to jump into EX headbutts and EX buttslams. Play this match lame and you should win. If you can?t land an AA on him because he?s too far away, s.hp will push him back out for free.
----> Pro tip: Mix up your anti-airs. For the most part your AA?s are better than Honda?s jump in attacks, but that doesn?t mean that any one of your AA?s will stuff all his options. Mix up s.hp, df.hk, and c.hp on the ground with your air-to-airs.
----> Pro tip: If he?s holding back on meter use, he probably wants to land a combo into hands xx super for massive damage. Take caution up close.
----> Pro tip: Some Hondas will try to frustrate you by sitting at ¾ or max screen and nj.hp?ing your booms. Don?t get frustrated. Just sit back and enjoy the ride as you build meter and he jumps around like an idiot.
----> FAQ: How do I get out of Honda?s wakeup game? A: Just like any other character with a strong close range game, mixing up your escapes is important. Jumping and backdashing will get you out of command grab pressure, but you risk eating a hands combo." -Slinkun, Typhoon < Sonic Boom < Vortex: The SSFIV Guile Matchup Thread
Please don’t spread misinformation. You cannot safe jump after ochio against any character, the enemy recovers too quickly. The term safe jump refers to when you have a setup where you knock someone down, jump, and attack them as they stand up. If they do not reversal, they are forced to take the hit or block. If they do reversal, you land during their invincible startup and block the first active frame of the attack. I posted several safe jump setups on the previous page.
Honda can safe jump sweep, ground hit butt drop, forward or back throw, super, or both ultras, and a non-tech rolled headbutt. Not ochio.
My goal in the matchup versus Guile is to keep him in a corner. I don’t want to go for fast damage or tricks, just slow pressure. Once I have him against a corner, then I’ll jab, fierce hands him to death. To get him into the corner, if I’m against a turtle-y, down back type Guile I’ll just walk up, block, walk up, block, push him back, etc. Against a sonic boom type Guile, I don’t mind taking some damage getting in, or ever being behind once I get him to the corner. Eventually, I’m going to have to jump over a sonic boom. I try not to do so unless I’ve seen him lose his down charge. I try to avoid using Ochio unless we’re on my half of the screen. After the ochio, I’ll just walk back a little bit, once he’s up, I’ll continue pushing him into a corner.
Once he is cornered, the important thing is to keep him there. If he escapes I have to do it again. As I’m generally willing to take a few risks to get him cornered I seldom have quite as much life as he does, meaning if he escapes I’ll probably lose the round. Knowing this, I take things slow and make sure I know my angles and spaces. It’s important to know the distances to use AA ex headbutt or to use AA ex buttdrop. Against Guile the buttdrop will usually work taking some of the guess work out, but if you’re too close you have to use headbutt. If you lose charge when he jumps, go for trade chop (though close fierce usually wins if he’s close enough for that). But again, don’t go for gimmicks or shenanigans, just go for solid pressure.
If you Ochio Guile when he’s in a corner, you are now cornered. I wouldn’t recommend using the move in the corner at all unless he’s got low enough life for Ochio to kill him. Worse, if you try to crossup splash afterward, it’ll either whiff or you’ll eat a flash kick because of the close proximity toward Guile.
After an Ochio If you’re sure he’s going to flashkick, just block. If you want to be safe versus flashkick or throw, do a late low tech. You can beat flashkick with a forward or ex butt drop, but blocking is free damage for you. I would probably punish with low forward, hands, whatever. You can even punish with Ochio or U2 to put him back in the corner, where you want him. If he roman cancels and forward dashes (though I don’t know why he’d go forward) it’s a free U2 if you have meter, otherwise just keep blocking and watch for the throw. If he goes backward then you’re in an irritating spot of trying to catch back up to him.
And a few miscellaneous things in the match that might help:
If I’m mid screen and don’t particularly care to push him back at the moment, I might for for some tricks or whatever then. Guile’s pretty fat on top making it easy to crossup with butt splash. On block, I might do it again, might Ochio, might back up/throw tech/block low/ex headbutt, whatever.
If you need extra meter for super canceling, you can do jab, hands, jab, hands, super versus standing guile. You only get 2 or 3 hits from the second hhs, but if you need the meter you need the meter. This combo is unsafe if not super canceled, a Guile who’s on his game will punish with flash kick. By and large I usually don’t go for a standing roundhouse against Guile after hands, instead opting to get close to him again.
If Guile jumps backward from point blank, ex butt drop will catch him on the way down. If you have him afraid to be on the ground, exploit this for some free damage. If Guile crosses you up, jump back fierce will put him in his place.
Flash kick is active on 4’th frame, this means if you intend to safe jump you need frame perfect timing. Given this, I generally don’t even bother trying to safe jump Guile. After a knockdown I’ll just stick to the ground. Going for big damage is cool and all, but keep in mind Guile doesn’t exactly have any big damage either. Take the match slow and most importantly play with patience.
It’s quite hard to super through a sonic boom, but you can Easily confirm ex sonic boom and blast that fool with a fierce super. At full screen I have to buffer the super before confirming the flashing yellow, but if you lose charge and dont’ get a super it’s not a big deal, you’ll have charge again shortly after.
Ultra 1 is essentially useless in this match. Yes, you can go through ex sonic booms if you’re close enough, but you can’t confirm a sonic boom and reach him off of a normal one. It’s impossible. Don’t try it.
I would accept a little reduction in damage in exchange for extra range on Ultra 2. They can’t possibly increase the amount of inputs needed for HHS; if they did they’d have to do it across the board for all characters with similar moves. My best guess is they’ll narrow the window for the the 5 punches closer to Blanka’s for jab electricity (on the other end of the spectrum would be Gen who seems to have the widest window for 5 punches).
As long as it’s five inputs it’ll still be super easy regardless of the window. My fear is they’ll do something like make it whiff/drop hits at closer ranges than it currently does.
[media=youtube]nnVyRqLs3Yw[/media]
not high level… BUT, what can guile do on wakeup besides whiff FK?
Hmm if the guile player is familiar with the buttslam range, he wont have any trouble blocking it. Since its not safe on block, youd get destryoed
Short, forward, and ex buttdrops are -2, roundhouse buttdrop is -3. Guile’s fastest moves are 3f (jab, throw). I only use roundhouse buttdrop to punish jump back attempts. Forward butt is pretty safe and usable from time to time. Being stuck next to someone at advantage isn’t optimal, but he still has nothing that punishes it.
He could have easily cr fierced any of those buttslams or focus attack punished :p. Also you were jumping at him for free and all he did was sonic booms. Anyway thank you for that awesome post retekin. Nothing new but def a good refresher write up. What he speaks is the truth people, take his advice!
Agreed…I’ve played Honda since vanilla and getting in on fireball frenzy characters are annoying and frustrating. Honda do not need a damage nerf…what is Capcom doing?
Well Set is losing his J. Fierce Stretchy hands so if other characters are changed that dramatically, this might not be that bad. I gotta feeling that Balrog match-up is still going to be a pain in the ass.
I need to stop assuming stuff.
the way i do it is
Numpad notation facing right
hhs, 6, Focus, 6, , 3 ,2 ,1, 4, 7, 8, 9, 6, 3 ,2, 1, 4 and i never really have any range issues
Just watched an old video of me playing online against U1abme2 and KING_OF_KINGZ893 (two Guile players) and they BOTH have answers for lk buttslam after Ochio. Although it was online, I was definitly air thrown out of a buttslam after ochio (U1abme2) (seeing as how Guile has air thrown me out of a freakin headbutt before, this dont surprise me) or Guile just dashes out the way and back hands you in the face (KING_OF_KINGZ893). I’ll post vids a little later.
[media=youtube]KDq9c0obqRI"[/media] 2:31 and 6:50
If they said comboing is harder, that means they upped the startup probably from 9 to probably 11 or 13. Either that or they made heavy pushback and/or decreased the forward movement on fierce hhs. They’re not going to change the inputs, that’s for sure.
Right now, hhs combos off max-range jab which is ridiculously overpowered to people with good execution like destructive or namameso. Expecting hhs to stay the same with a 260 damage bread and butter off 1 jab is just wishful thinking. Hell, j.hk, c.mk xx fp hhs, c.mk xx ex hb is just ridiculously op on certain characters with only 1 bar of meter used. I’m a vanilla honda and even I know it.
Please don’t let them mess up hands!