@Shiroyasha: why did you mark my post as a troll ? I posted my views on this match up and I stated that my knowledge on Juri is limited. So what’s your problem ? Or you just flag as a troll anybody who disagree with you ?
Instead going with stuff like “how do I open up a Honda that has a life lead”, maybe you should explain how exactly this match is played, and how come Honda was able to get that life lead.
Interesting stuff, Genki.
For the record, I’m genuinely interested in this match up. Juri is one of the characters I understand the least, and I think I’ve seen this match up played at high level only once, so I’m really curious about it.
Regarding Juri’s fireball - so Honda can HB over low fireball and crouch under the middle one, like against Sagat. But Sagat zoning game still blows Honda, even if Honda can hb his low TS and crouch under his high TS. So shouldn’t Juri still be able to mix her fireballs and keep Honda out ?
About Juri’s antiairs - but other characters like Chun Li, Dhalsim and Guile also has situational antiairs, they don’t have a catch’em all DP, but are still able to zone honda. I mean, against guile, Honda can stuff half of his antiairs with jump Lp, and stuff other AAs with his jump Mp. It’s a game of rock/paper/scissors, but Guile still beats Honda.
So, Juri’s AAs are worse than Chun/Sim/Guile ?
You can just double store if honda is walking your mk fireballs, as soon as he is walking you have a free low fireball because he just lost charge. I spend all of my meter on ex fireballs in this matchup too. I like keeping hk fireball stored at all times as a reaction anti-air.
Don’t forget that the upside to mk fireball being crouchable is the same as with Sagat’s high tiger, it’s all about what you can do with that knowledge at any given range. For example if they are close enough you can throw in an overhead, if they are further away you can store when it’s passing over them or throw a low ex etc. etc.
regarding your Sagat and Juri zoning comparisons…no its not the same as Sagat.
You are forgetting that Juri has to store her fireball first…and Honda, my dear friend, can punish the recovery of fireball store with HB if shes at the wrong distance for her store…which is anything under full screen or right in Honda’s face as in a frame trap sequence.
Chun can block and backdash, Dhalsim can teleport, and Guile can just flashkick.
Juri has the worst backdash in the game. Her walkspeed is slow. And her health is low and easily stunned.
Plus, Juris are very accustomed to doing cr.mp when any opponent jumps in and with Honda stuffing her cr.mp with his j.f. mp…it means the Juri player has to consciously keep in mind throughout the entire match to anti-air him with st.hp or cr.hp or f.st. mk. space dependent.
No Juri’s AA aren’t worse than Chun, Sim, Guile…its just that some few moves beat her cr.mp like Honda’s j.f. mp or Bison’s j.f. hp.
look, to put it simply, Juri cant advance on Honda.
Juri is a character designed to punish mistakes by the opponent. Her divekick punishes fireballs, her counter punishes poke attempts and fireballs. She depends on her opponent doing something that leaves them open. Honda’s moveset other than buttslam leaves him safe.
For ex, Hakan’s slide punishes Honda’s Headbutt attempts. There’s nothing juri can do to really punish Honda’s headbutt consistently and reliably.
Couple that with Juri having a high arc jump in that gets punished by ex headbutt and her slow walkspeed and her slow telegraphing overhead…and it becomes very difficult to open up a good Honda’s defense.
all she can do is lame it out, toss out middle fireballs from a distance where he cant headbutt the store, be wary of a jump in and be ready to hp it, and hope and pray the Honda does something foolish like whiffed buttslam.
I have a very hard time seeing honda punishing stores with headbut on reaction, the only way for that to work (from my pov) is if you’re being too obvious with when you’re storing.
It’s not a bad matchup because you have to use different anti-airs than you’re used to either, I’m not seeing the 3-7 factor that everyone is talking about and I have played a lot against high level Honda. I mean even Zangief rapes Juri if he gets in, -if- he gets in.
Thank you, that is very insightfull.
I searched around on youtube and I’ve found a couple of sets with Juri vs Honda. I have to say what I saw matched what you and Genki have said. Juri simply can’t keep Honda out. So, yeah, I think the match is heavily in Honda’s favour.
Btw, if you guys are interested:
Juicebox vs Mr.snk
very nice set (check the combos Mr.snk is doing). Worth noting in other tourney, Juice went straight to Abel and managed to beat Mr.Snk.
C.Fierce and Far Forward lose to his Jumping strong too. You have to use Far Fierce to anti air Honda and it’s not the easiest of tasks but it is doable. If numbers are really a concern I would say it’s 5.5 to 6 in Honda’s favour.
Juri - Gief is 5 - 5. I’ve said this for a long time, but Gief players get butthurt because they have to work hard to get in. Itabashi shares the exact same view (5 - 5), if that’s any consolation
In regards to headbutt…if you can’t punish it consistently…use a move that brings you closer to Honda that leaves you at a minor advantage/disadvantage. Reposition yourself closer to Honda. Until a punishable permanent solution is found…try repositioning. You be surprised at what find.
The big problem is the damage difference. Honda does a lot more damage, has more life, more stun, he can anti-air fairly well and he can jump in almost for free. Random headbutts aren’t even an issue, MK fireball or far MK stuffs those for free. But he can keep doing them. And he can keep jumping in. He can eat over 20 fireballs before he dies; if he takes 5 to the face but manages to land a jf.RH into a combo, he’s still ahead.
From the Honda combo thread:
3)j. RH [j. Fierce], cr. Jab, FP 100HS, s. RH
130 [120] + 40 + 112 (20 x 7=140 x .8) + 70 (100 x .7) = 352 [342]
That’s 36% of Juri’s hp. 5 of our fireballs into Honda’s face = 250 damage = 23% hp. Assuming he forgets how to block.
That coupled with Juri’s less-than-stellar rushdown game and the losing gamble of trying to pressure Honda on wakeup means Juri has to be really on point to keep ahead on life. PLUS there’s his damnable command throw, which I believe has enough range to grab before Juri is in range to use close normals to get airborn.
It’s not a horrible unwinnable matchup, but it’s a frustrating one where two mistakes can = death. I agree with the tier list numbers of 3.5/6.5 in Honda’s favor. Maybe it’s not that bad - far HP is a 120-damage antiair after all, and maybe Juri can just do that, far MK headbutts and walking forward attempts, and occaisonally dash under or dive kick to get out of the corner. So far I haven’t seen anything to convince me that that’s the case.
Edit:
Juri does not have the worst backdash in the game. See here.
Honda’s LP and MP headbutts aren’t punishable, they simply push him back too far despite being negative on block. I believe HP and EX can be punished with LK pinwheel, but only the second hit reaches. You just took 35 chip damage and did 40 damage back to him. 20 of those and you’ll overcome his natural life lead. Yay?
Xian made a FT5 against Akimo at Kowait early in 2013, you can find it on Youtbe :
Xian won it. Obviously the gameplan make this matchup for honda on the paper, but with an oversized Gen from AE2012 (hard kds, dmgs from combos, unpunishable whiffs, …) It’s hard to give matchups to Gen ?
Also since Honda’s reversal is 7f, Juri can safe jump and OS ultra 2. But Honda’s ex Sumo press flies before u2 connect, so it’s not that reliable. (Exact same thing with Rose and his ex soul throw, or Viper and her Feints).
@Voidstar
when do the invincibility frames become active on most character’s backdash?
Coz I don’t care what the numbers say…i’d say everyone’s backdash feels more useful than Juris. hers feels “slow” and punishable.
I read it. But I don’t see which frames are the invincibility frames. Do you?
Edit:
While you are at it, can you tell me how many frames for start up before invincibility kicks in and recovery back into her lifted leg stance.
Remember, she’s the only character that backflips her backdash, while everyone hops, ontop of that, after the backflip she has to go back to her raised leg stance…how many frames does lifting her leg back into raised leg stance are there?
I’m pretty sure all characters have 8f invincibility on their backdashes.
The thing which separates good backdashes from the ones like Juri’s are mostly the airborne frames, distance of the backdash and most of all hurtbox.
