It’s not like Sirlin didn’t try. He DID get a lot of feedback from the japanese masters. Just because DSP cried because Sirlin/backbone wouldn’t fly him to cali all expenses paid to get his “opinion” doesn’t mean Sirlin didn’t get the right input.
You absolutely can bait Rog super. Just stay in the corner and you’ll likely have a reversal chance hit or block due to that slowdown glitch.
Yeah, I main Balrog and even I agree he is grossly overpowered. Damage, range, dash into super shenanigans ( l love crossing up with this), walk speed, anti air etc. It came to the point where I just played him exclusively and just learn to deal with his bad match ups. At the very least, it should be easier to bait out headbutt or cross him up.
And Akuma, largely because I suspect that air fireball trap people use literally destroys your inputs sometimes, but that could just be rage talking…
After playing ST for the last couple of months and not really playing HDR except only recently I really can feel the difference between the 2 a lot more now. My conclusion is that I like HDR better, it just feels like all the matches are closer and its not so one sided. I feel like in ST there are a lot of matches where one character just dominates the other, while in HDR each character has a few more option to deal with certain situations because of the changes made.
I’d like to have seen the option to play in all 3 modes Old, New and the HDR version with or without the new art. I personally like the new art but will agree Sagat may be a little buffer than he maybe should be but everyone else look really good\pissed especially Chun =D
P.S. I like Chun’s new SBK it has its weaknesses but it also has it strengths and it didn’t over power her nor under power her, it just made her more fun IOM.
I only chose to main Chun because of the changes made to her in HDR, previously I did not like playing her because of her stupid df.mk flip kick and seemingly one dimensional game play in ST (tick, throw, super bleh) But in HDR she has so many fun little things to do and new stuff to discover. HDR is the only reason I still play ST at all right now and even part of the fighting game community so I owe a lot to HDR.
I’d love to see the game revisited and re-worked to perfection or maybe even a new game with the same type of game play, because playing ST is starting to get (I hate to say it) boring =\ Especially when it feels so match specific ie this character beats that one every time unless that one makes a mistake etc. HDR really does feel like every character is a contender for that top spot just the way it is.
As far as the CW motion goes, I had the most difficult time with it when I first started playing Fei in ST. The motion is just so f’ing awkward. I was hell bent on getting it down no matter what though. I would spend hours upon hours sitting in the lab, doing 5 CW’s in a row, then doing 10 in a row, then 20 in a row, etc… If I ever screwed one up, I would reset the count and count my way back up. After about a month of practice (and since then with that being said), I don’t miss the CW input anymore than I miss a walk-up Typhoon with Hawk in HDR, which is a good 5-10% of the time.
Point is, it doesn’t matter how spot on you get with any kind of harder (and perhaps even some of the easier inputs… depends on your situation) input between HDR or ST; there will always be that little margin for error, no matter how brutally or systematically you practice.
What if I do? Not like you’re going to do anything about it. We’re an ocean away.
No offense taken, sir. It’s so wonderful that this page hasn’t degenerated into ad hominem attacks. Things have changed around here. A spirited, thoughtful yet civil discussion used to be hard to come by on these sorts of threads.
The half circle CW is a great idea!
I really do wish we could somehow convince Capcom to create a definitive iteration. With their affinity for sequels, you would imagine that it wouldn’t be hard. But I suppose applying minor tweaks to a 3-D engine is far less involved than destroying and rebuilding ST/HDR from the ground up.
Capcom, I’d pay you $200 for a copy of Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo x Super Street Fighter 2 HD Remix Arcade Edition Gold Plus. Just keep SF 2 alive–don’t make me beg!
I like the posts about spd being overpowered.
That is the reason why snake eyez did so well at evo. He can spd without jumping! If kuni went to evo for hdr, he would dominate because finally, finally he could spd without leaving the ground
Years ago, I remember Sirlin telling me about his contribution to the Zangief section in an Alpha 2 guide- maybe Jchensor had that section, but he said they each had different strategies with gief for getting in to spd. One was the ground game, using green hand, lariats and normals to get in, whereas the other was more focused on when exactly to jump and which jumping attack for the best ticks into spd. So there are different ways to play gief and I’ve seen some pretty good giefs. Not to take anything away from SnakeEyes and his accomplishments in hdr, but I think lots of players go to gief with some tremendously powerful ground game tactics. Seriously, the next time you play against a gief in HDR, just try doing like 2 or 3 low hard kicks in a row to counter his lariats (you have to do them kind of late). I think the giefs won’t really stop because they realize how powerful the lariate is, and are all the more reluctant to consider they’re being baited into them. Of course, that’s kind of gief’s nature- roll with the punches, and he trades well but he lost a lot of the risks in ST so it’s not the same.
re: Dhalsim’s motions- I actually disagree with this. Keep in mind, this wasn’t like some great original insight- in Alpha 2 and later games, I think it worked the same way where you had the backwards motion to get the yoga flame out (whereas in ST, a fire(ball) is quarter circle towards, and flame is half circle towards). The reason why I prefer the original way (ST) is because it plays into the mind game and how the yoga flame takes longer to come out. A good example is vs. Ryu, where Dhalsim can cancel out his fireballs with yoga fires, but Ryu’s spin kick beats a yoga fire, so anticipating the spin kick requires Dhalsim to yoga flame. Many times, I’ve conflated-fused the two motions in my muscle memory, however it forces you to be super clear about what you intended to do. I don’t have the best execution- and in fact, with Ryu I even get a super when I meant a DP and vice versa but I see that as core to the gameplay and like, ok I messed it up, if not by guessing the wrong move, then getting the wrong input or estimating the start-up time wrong (i.e. I’m so used to the fire’s quick startup time, and expect the yoga flame’s to be just as quick). I can understand why people get used to the new way and prefer that, and don’t care so much about what may appear to you as these tiny little differences and think they are inconsequential, for this old man that’s where things start to get really interesting and I’m happy to hash out more matches of it. Maybe you think, ok I want EXPLICIT motions for each move, with as little overlap as possible- reducing option select for good OR bad (e.g. ST Zangief’s hops when you meant an SPD).
Btw, notice how this doesn’t apply to throws, because Sirlin preferred THAT overlapping (i.e. how if you try one thing, e.g. a big combo but get a throw by accident, he said that’s always a good thing). So throwing with jab/short like in SF3 or two punches/kicks like Alpha3 would follow the “explicit motions” tack, but that was the exception, apparently. Of course, changing the throw system in hdr would have certainly made it more distinct from ST (and quite likely disastrous).
I used to think Noguchi was the best, however after one X-Mania I ran into at least one other great Fei Long (there are a few other top ones rarely heard about that crop up every now and then) and I’d have to ask around to confirm it but I thought there was at least one or two others. Yeah it’s disappointing that he goes to claw in tournaments. But 15-20% as Jiggly says isn’t so bad-- even for Japanese players who not only reversal all day, they also have really great strategies. I mention that because one of the last times I played Noguchi’s fei, I remember thinking, I wish he WOULD screw up one of those CW one of these rounds. While Fei Long did have the curses of both dictator (kind of needs big swings for the chance for high damage/zoning) as well as zangief/honda (generally getting in), they just added up.
Surprised you didn’t mention the worst super in the entire game: Honda’s. If it gets hit by the first hit, can be DP’ed (can also get DP’d if they block 1st hit), measley 4 hits max. Which you never get, you’re lucky to ever get even 3 of them. In any case, that’s the game, and I could argue that you’re either expecting miracles from those particular moves, or simply misusing them. Every character has a jumping in hard kick. If you time it at the height of the jump arc, you will be vulnerable on landing in similar ways so you learn to time it later. Unless you thought the opponent was going to jump… So yes, in that sense you have “get over” it. I’m not saying it’s as easy as boxer’s constant “rah rah raaaaa” bs of course but if you tweak it too far, it’s overpowering. In Blanka’s case, I personally think players just never tapped into the potential of hdr blanka- Mithos on XBL in recent memory is the closest I’ve seen. Boxer was pretty terrible before ST, then suddenly he’s one of the best due to those kinds of changes (with or without having the best super in the game).
As far as I know, he got next to no feedback from the Japanese masters (in any case, they certainly voted with their feet by stickin with ST/Classic). Outside of maybe some top Japanese player he ran into at a tournament, Japanese were not even aware that HDR was even in production until after release.
Wha? yeah good luck with THAT
The big problem with boxer that wasn’t really addressed in HDR was that opponents had to still guess and zone really really well in order to “bait out the headbutt” (the buffalo headbutt I assume, unless you meant the grab?). Basically from FULL SCREEN, Ryu/Dhalsim for example can fireball, which boxer waits for and headbutts through it. From THAT new distance, suddenly things get very dangerous for opponent because a charged rushing punch (or super, if he has meter-- hard match gets even harder when boxer has that meter full) it starts the shutdown process with all that you described. With Studtrooper’s answer, ryu can always just magically DP I suppose, then again, you wonder about how good your accuracy is esp if boxer supers- that is just one big fat wall of hit that is best avoided altogether if possible. So In general terms, you had the situation where boxer has to start up a dangerous and very scary game by just headbutting through a fireball, whereas Ryu would be expected to DP all the other stuff (dash punches/normal and jumping attacks oh and, watch out for the grab). The headbutt is a much easier move to do in these situations- it not only gets him through projectiles, but it is a great move on its own. So in HDR, was this changed? That could have definitely used some tweaking.
Voltechs and I talked a little about Chun this week on Live, and I mentioned how I realized just how consistent he is with storing the charge even when crossing up the opponent… I remember reading that being like a 1 frame window or something, at least in ST but was this changed (relaxed to be more forgiving) in hdr? If not you’ve got a great knack for keeping the charge esp in lag Voltechs. For this reason I probably didn’t see the changes in Chun Li right away but given that I’d say she’s the best improved character as I mentioned- toned down like an annoying chun/boxer should be and even added some creative moves that don’t overcompensate.
JigglyNorris I agree, 100% reliability might be nice but we never quite get there, even Noguchi isn’t 100%.
Hm $200 revenue on a $200000 (?) budget… not likely to get approved for production. 
Adding more character types (old/super versions, ST, AND remix) complicates everything all over again and in many, many ways esp for balance issues. Does anyone in the US play Anniversary Edition? I play as Ryu in HDR because he didn’t change so much, however that’s only half the battle because every matchup (outside of the mirror), DID get changes so it’s still different.
XSPR
FYI DR is not invincible to throws. You’ll see the “reversal” message and still get stuffed by perfectly-timed tick throws. The trick is to avoid the tick, but the opponent can stuff the escape pretty easily as well if anticipated.
One thing I’ve wondered about: how does everybody feel about the “speed” the DR gained? I think it adds offense to what was pretty much a useless move, although the invincibility would’ve already done that.
Hm, when i was posting that i was really in doubt about that since i dont play hdr for a lot of time, thanks for correcting it.
One thing that i would change from ST is shotos being throwable during DPs. It only happened vs gief and t.hawk, but still it looks sooo strange.
That rarely happens. First, because Boxer has a good chance of landing it guaranteed, since it has so much invulnerability and reach; second because the super must land on the first hit but at the later frames for that to happen, which will only happen if Rog uses the super from a wrong distance. But it is really annoying that you manage to bait that shit, and either he avoids your aerial attack by holding kicks, or even juggles you for several hits and major damage. That is really retarded, together with the super often ending suddenly if he misses it into the corner, so you try to punish it and eat a headbutt he shouldn’t be able to use in the first place.
I am still waiting for a good Dictator to explore this character, as I am pretty sure some matches get lopsided solely for dictator escaping fireballs on reaction and being invulnerable to meaty cross-ups, which is a was several characters rely on.
Heh. I’ve followed HDRs development since those leaked pics first surfaced in 2006 or whatever. Sirlin has mentioned numerous times (including on his extensive changelist on his site: http://www.sirlin.net/sf) that he got input from more than a few masters from both the US and Japan. And it wasn’t Sirlin’s fault the game didn’t come out in Japan, it was Capcoms. Not that there aren’t ways around that: http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2010/11/29/japanese-players-enjoying-sf-hd-remix.html
The guy you quoted there is easily the best Bison on XBL/PSN.
[URL=‘http://www.sirlin.net/blog/2010/11/29/japanese-players-enjoying-sf-hd-remix.html’]
That video footage is from late Nov 2010, and those players didn’t really play HDR besides that (if they did it would be on Classic, not Remixed). In fact there are very few Japanese players that play Remixed (on XBL anyways, but I doubt ps3 is much different) but some do play Classic. In terms of the input from Japanese players, it would have had to have happened long before that, and like I said I think it was only say Daigo and maybe Tokido at events like Evo-- players who hadn’t really focused on ST minutia by then. In one sense this is fine because the game is targeted to a more casual player, not just the diehards like us but for threads like this one, it quickly becomes apparent that Sirlin isn’t the only person with an opinion about what exactly ought to be rebalanced and how, esp. if you consider high level play and what are potential overbalancing pitfalls. While Sirlin did solicit this type of feedback from top US players, he didn’t necessarily always have to use it as he had the final say.
Well no offense meant to Reno or anyone else, but that does not mean that the potential has been tapped. When you think about it, Reno himself probably agrees because no matter how good you get, if you’re still playing a game, that itself is probably an indication that you still think the game has something left to explore, since he posed the question about the DR. (FWIW Reno, I don’t have too strong an opinion on the DR change from what I’ve seen so far, though I don’t play as dictator.)
XSPR
As someone who loves both ST and HDR so much that choosing between them is like choosing between children, I think HDR taught us that rebalancing is just fine, but that those rebalances should’ve been a little less immediately noticeable in how the moves look, and more conservative in some areas.
I really love the way that HDR opened up the game’s juggle potential for more characters. That’s amazing to me, as is the fact that the game somehow feels more balanced in more matchups. But things like Ryu’s fake fireball, Chun Li’s altered trajectory on her SBK, even though it’s more ‘useful’ now, bother me for some reason.
Actually, Ryu’s fake fireball in and of itself doesn’t bother me, it’s the fact that it can be cancelled into. If it was used purely to trick the opponent into jumping without the ability to cancel into it for various up-close shenanigans, that would be a lot better IMO.
Sometimes, too, I wish I had the choice of choosing between versions of moves - for example, T-Hawk’s changed dive doesn’t particularly bother me, I just wish he had both options. press PPP for classic, KKK for new version or something like that.
It’s the sort of game I sorta wish would offer tiny rebalancing tweaks every year or two, just to work things out to perfection.
Apparently the programmer for hdr said it wasn’t possible for t hawk to have both hawk dives
Where did you hear this? Throughout a good deal of HDR’s development, T.Hawk did have two dives.
Moreover, what advantage would keeping the old dive give you? It takes so long to land from it, that even when you corner an opponent with it, you can’t capitalize any more than you would have been able to with the new dive. The only two situations I’ve ever seen the old dive clearly superior in are:
-when you trade with a botched anti-air normal and lose the recovery animation (certainly not a reliably consistent tactic)
-when you successfully connect using the HDR dive with an opponent, yet somehow manage to land on their late slow fireball (rare, but possible)
The ability to tick or chip much more safely with the new one, though, really makes it shine. It does still lose to everything that beat the old one, granted, but it gives him some options in some of his worst matches he didn’t have before. I’ve yet to hear a compelling argument for the old one besides “well I just miss having it.”
Stepping into some dangerous territory here, but Hawks Old Dive would hinder him in the HDR metagame much more than ST. Guile and Fei Long, in addition to those who could counter originally, would both be able to hit him during the recovery on block with a RH Flash Kick and Fierce Rekkas.
You’re still fucked either way against Honda though, just saying.
I used to think the same thing too. I played HDR hawk before played ST hawk. But after the dive, if you use this tech, you will be able to reach in to get an spd off anyone. Still works in HDR as well. Its called the sako tick.
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Most of the changes I would have reverted have been mentioned i.e. dragon punch window, feilong rekka, and 360 motions. I would have also changed the artwork, if only they used the same process used for Skull girls we would have seen far superior art style similar to the Udon comics.
Skullgirls didn’t have to overlay sprites over existing sprites. If I remember right, Sirlin later lamented over not getting more detail in the HDR sprites (likely due to time and money).