Feint Cancels, Instant Air Burn kicks (Ground burn kicks don’t cross up), Jump Cancels, easy to drop ultra combos, etc. She has some very hard motions and timing on her moves that makes it hard to pick her up, but as stated before her game plan is very simple once you do.
Gen.
Pardon my ignorance since I don’t play him, but Vega?! Hard to win with at top level? Ok, I can buy that. Hard to learn?! I must be missing something. Can someone please break down what’s hard about learning him?
Viper. No contest.
- gen- more character specifics than anyone in the game, 2 stances, semi mandatory 1 frame links, mild dexterity barrier, and a relatively low payout for knowing all that shit
- viper-highest dexterity requirements
- fuerte- RSF.
- sim- honorable mention for mental requirements
With Vega, it’s less about learning him, per se, than about mastering him.
When you look at his move-set, I agree, it’s pretty straight forward. All charges, nothing too complicated, unless you’re talking about his u1 motion, which, overtime becomes second nature, so it’s not too much of a problem. The problem is reading your opponent. So, if you’re talking about going out and learning Vega’s moveset and getting a couple scrubby wins in, then yeah, I agree, Vega does not belong on this list, but mastering Vega is one of the hardest things to do in this game, no doubt.
No reversal
No anti-air
No I-Frame offensive move
No 3-F move (special or normal)
No way to combo into Super
Jabs are 1-F links and 4-F start up
Back-flips are useless (They are, not even up for discussion)
People have to learn to work around these things to get a win, and to ultimately master the character. And contrary to what I’ve read here Vega does not have the best kara throw in the game and he is not safe after dropping links, you will be punished if you drop links. I’m not trying to down play his abilities or make it seem like he’s not good because he is, it’s just not easy to play or master him. It’s not.
And I love how people casually mention, “well, yeah, Vega doesn’t have a reversal but…” whoa, wait! That’s a big fucking deal. Huge. How can you downplay that? Because he has great walkspeed and pokes? How the fuck do those help him after a knockdown? Let me paint you a scenario:
Someone gets a knockdown on Vega. When the jump-in and/or crossover comes, Vega has nothing to deal with it except block. Which is fine but keep in mind he also has no 3-F normal or I-F offensive move to escape pressure with. That means option selects become highly unsafe, he can’t reversal through blockstrings (anyone’s jab will beat Vega’s EX Flip Kick, I shit you not), he can’t try to jab out of pressure since his cr.lp and cr.lk are 4-F start-up and anyone’s jab will beat them, so it becomes a huge guessing game. It doesn’t matter how good your reactions are, at this point it’s strictly a guessing game. Will the opponent continue his block string or go for a throw? If I guess wrong and attempt to tech a throw a cr.lk will come out, and his jab will beat it and I will be severely punished. Leading to another knockdown and another guessing game. See where this is going?
So when people say it’s not hard to learn and play with Vega, yeah, I guess it’s not hard to learn how to wall-dive and backflip across the stage like an idiot, but when it comes to reading your opponent, when it comes to defending yourself with that joke of a defense you have, when it comes to winning with Vega, casually or high-level play, shit will start to get real. It seems a lot of people saw the question " who’s the hardest to learn and master" and automatically went for the most technical characters. Characters that require great hand placement and precision, and while that is true, there’s also another side to the coin. Viper, Gen, Akuma…all these characters require technical skills but you know what they all have in common? A reversal. One sloppy jump-in from their opponent and they have a get-out-of-jail-free card. Vega doesn’t have that. So, if having no answer to pressure/jump-ins in **a game built around rush-down tactics **can’t get you on a toughest to master list I don’t know what can.
Again, not downplaying Vega or trying to seem like a martyr (because he’s a solid character), because he posses glaring weaknesses that make it extremely difficult to master him.
Also when it comes to dexterity he’s no walk in the park either. Definitely not the hardest, but he’s up there. Dude has to 1-F link his jabs and if you want any kind of decent damage, you’re looking at a 2-F link at the easiest.
ryu for sure his shoryuken combo ishard
haha people who said gen are stupid all u have to do is ogo crossup thing to crouch fierce hes very overpowerd and cheap
with shoryuken combo i mean shoruyken to ultra try that gen players…
cheap noobs
If this was still vanilla SSFIV, I would say Hakan, without a doubt. However at this point, while I would still consider him top 3, or at least 5 in character difficulty, he has been buffed enough that he no longer needs dozens of impractical setups for his throw and reset game. He still has plenty of setups, but they’re legit now, and require less work (but still alot) than before.
feels good man.
as for who I think is the overall toughest, Gen or Viper. Viper, despite being an awesome character, is still super duper high execution, and Gen is… Gen.
I’d stick Vega and Mak in top 5 as well
Claw’s links are easy as fuck lol. Doesn’t really matter that they’re 1f, some 1f links are just easier to hit than others (ie Sagat’s cr.LP, cr.LP or Yang’s cr.LK, cr.LP) Not having a get out of jail free card doesn’t really play much into the fact that he’s hard to learn either (yes, I do think he is hard to master regardless.)
Seth’s pretty easy to learn too. He’s only hard if you play a bunch of idiots online all day (since that means you’ll have to learn varying safe jumps to compensate for the online bullshit factor.)
I think I agree with this for the top 3, except I’d swap Fuerte with Sim.
Hakan you try learning all those gimmicks. Also watching the oil clock without a meter, his weird oil parry stuff, dash cancel craziness. Hard links and like 40 unique very specific anti air options. You need to be real good to win with hakan.
Character specific offense is much harder to learn than anything execution related. This thread isn’t making a lot of sense.
There is a difference between “hard to use” and “hard to learn”.
Lulz. Pure lulz.
Yes…it…does. It is a key part of his character design and one that people who play with him have to get familiar with in order to be successful with him. To master a character, you must learn all aspects of their game and adapt accordingly.
If you say ‘fuck it’ and just ignore the fact that Claw has no reversal you will get you ass handed to you, in pieces.
Kinda works like this: The player discovers that Vega has no reversal and develops strategies around that fact in order to learn and master him. Not dissing man but this isn’t rocket science.
Well, I would go into this but you say Claw has no anti-air and list “no combo into super” as something that makes him hard to master…so it’s kind of hard to want to argue about it.
Viper, Gen, ElF and Hakan.
Viper and Gen due to execution, ElF due to synergy (with the character) and Hakan due to limited options at the beginner to intermediate level.
I feel like characters like Claw and Gen can be mastered through timing and familiarization. Both have a few tight links plus Gen requires you to learn spacing and timing, as well as MK > Hand (which is easy with the slide method). It’s usually the execution that stunts the growth when it comes to learning a character.
C.Viper isn’t like other characters in the game, where you evaluate their toolset, learn their links, practice their matchups, and you’re good to go. With Viper, you have to get the execution part down first before going into all that other stuff. Regular Burn Kick is irrelevant; When you do Burn Kick, you do the TK version. You never do Seismo Hammer by itself; you either loop it with another one or feint it to cancel recovery. Thunder Knuckle feints for mixups and combos, EX Hammer feint for invincibility frames.
I can’t think of any other character whose entire moveset is near useless without a high demand for execution.
They always go badly and it always gets retarded. Everyone wants to believe their main is the one that requires the most skill. This conversation is kind of a devolution of the tier list discussion.