Ryu players have a similar choice between Metsu Hadoken and Metsu Shoryuken. How many of them do you see picking Metsu Shoryuken? Comparatively few, and no offense, but most of those wind up not being as good players. They’re usually players who tend to try to mash out Metsu Shoryuken while they’re being hit to try to interrupt combos.
Haoh Gadoken does less damage than Shisso Buraiken, but it’s much easier to land. I’ll take reliability over size, personally, except in matches where I know Shisso Buraiken serves as a deterrent/punishment (T. Hawk vs. Condor Dives, Blanka vs. Upballs).
Well…if you don’t use Haoh you can probably build a full super and land Shisso with it. while if you use Haoh you’re gonna burn 2 bars for it. Even if you don’t use the super with Shisso, Dan’s focus is actually pretty good for landing it or using it as a counter move, also those 2 bars can still be used for an EX move, such as ex-krk, ex-dankyu or ex-gado.
Imo they are both good ultras. Depending on match up, one is better than the other.
well, Haoh can be punished both on whiff and block as well.
There are very few match-ups where Shissou has some importance and even then I still think the versatility of Haoh wins out. You can’t really confirm Legendary Taunt into Shissou unless you’re doing that awful 1-frame link combo (good luck with that!). You won’t be landing a Focus crumple on good players often and obviously you can still land Haoh after that as well.
On block very few characters will be able to punish that and they’d probably need Super/Ultra ready, it’s harder punish if you’re not familiar with punishing it but you shouldn’t really be using it unless you know it can’t be avoided anyways.
If I, as a Ryu player, can land Metsu Hadoken throu other projectiles, i don’t see the problem with a counter Shisso Buraiken. I think if you can read pattern in gameplay or if somebody tries to chip you out, you can counter them with the ultra, and that’s what Shisso is, a counter Ultra with good damage, bad recovery just like Haoh.
I wish you good luck with your 30%-40% damage. <— and we are talking in the case you have full ultra for all the ultra damage and ALL the juggle hits. its a weak ultra. the damage is disappointing and the recovery is a joke.
who in the hell does that 1 frame into super?!? that’s not reliable at all.
L-O-W F-O-R-W-A-R-D xx G-A-D-O-K-E-N
Mago lands FA with Fei all the time and since Dan’s FA has good range and speed, why can’t i do that also? and yes, you can do that with Haoh too, but the damage difference is pretty big, 15-20% less for Haoh?
Rufus punished me with his best BnB with a blocked Haoh…and i wasn’t in the corner. The recovery takes fooorever. he literally dashed and jumped in, HK xx HP xx HP Galactic Tornado xx [corner] LP Galactic Tornado
Shissou Buraiken can’t punish a properly spaced meaty fireball.
Haoh Gadouken is balls-easy to land. You can throw out a Koryuken and FADC it, which means you can go for the ultra setup regardless of whether or not you have a punish window. If you guess wrong: you get another mixup attempt and you’re still inside. This isn’t the same for Shissou. Mess up with it and you’re dead.
Dan’s Focus Attack isn’t nearly as comparable to Fei Long’s. Fei Long has a substantially larger frame advantage on block.
The four bars it takes to hit-confirm Legendary Taunt xx Shissou could be better spent on a stun-building combo for comparable damage. It’s also hard to set up, or to hit-confirm from the low-forward during footsies (Of which Dan has none).
I wouldn’t call Shissou a counter Ultra when your “counter” relies on you effectively guessing your opponent’s next move rather than reacting to it. Predicting a fireball or whatever and trying to “counter” with Ultra is a huge risk and to be frank you could probably do the same thing with Haoh anyways.
I wish you good luck with your “barely find the chance to use” Ultra. I’m doing just fine with Haoh, getting to land it practically all the time I get enough Ultra meter for it.
Ryu: HP SRK FADC > Metsu Hadouken - 398
Ken: HP SRK FADC > Shinryuken (non-CH) - 326
Dudley: EX Jet Upper FADC > Corkscrew Cross - 364
Seth: HP SRK FADC > Tandem Typhoon - 368-388 (tricky!) Dan: HP KRK FADC > Haoh Gadouken - 387
Sagat: TU FADC > f.HK > Tiger Destruction - 482
Cammy: HK Cannon Spike FADC > Gyro Drive Smasher - 364 (slightly tricky, doesn’t work when in corner)
Cody: HK Ruffian Kick FADC > Final Destruction - 478 (misses crouching opponents)
EX Bingo FADC > Final Destruction - 468
Fei-Long: MK Flame Kick FADC > Rekkashingeki - 368 (3-hits, easy to only get 2, tricky!)
Adon: HK Rising Jaguar FADC > Jaguar Avalanche - 397
Doesn’t look like that little damage now, does it? Considering it’s more versatile than most of those listed I think the damage it does is more than justified. You want to talk about disappointing damage then look at Sakura’s Shinkuu Hadouken, quite possibly the lowest damage Ultra in game and no where near the most versatile.
You know, the damage difference between Ultras isn’t that big. It’s 97 points. That damage difference actually shrinks when you’re doing Koryuken > FADC > Ultra, because the damage from the Koryuken (140 points, 175 on a counterhit) more than offsets the one juggle hit you lose and the damage scaling from comboing into your Ultra. While you’re depending on a Focus Attack (which then makes the follow-up Ultra only do 70% damage) or a Legendary Taunt cancel for Shisso Buraiken, Haoh Gadoken can essentially occur at random whenever you have two bars. At any point, you can try for a Koryuken > FADC and either get the Ultra, or be safe afterwards. I like doing c.MK > Gadoken > Legendary Taunt > Ultra myself, but I’ll be the first to admit that I can’t always hit confirm the taunt. Sometimes I wind up blowing the Super meter when the opponent blocks it.
Again, I’ll ask, how many Ryus do you see using Metsu Shoryuken? While Metsu Hadoken does practically the exact same damage as Haoh Gadoken (369, compared to Haoh’s 368), Metsu Shoryuken is sizably stronger than Shisso Buraiken, doing over 500 damage compared to Shisso’s 465. But Metsu Hadoken is the one that’s easy to combo into, so it’s the one you see 99% of the time.
" […] 30%-40% damage. <— and we are talking in the case you have full ultra for all the ultra damage and ALL the juggle hits […] " otherwise the comeback potential is very low.
without the full meter its a weak ultra, i am disappointed by it, but I DO UNDERSTAND its uses.
good points, but those don’t destroy the use of U1 for me.
it’s a good point.
I do use Metsu SRK and it does 503 “over 500 omgbbq”. The metsu hado does 398. like i said 2 3 posts ago, both have its uses. this argument can be made for the Gouki’s ultra as well, everyone says that u2 sucks, yet there are free ways to land it.
p.s. don’t get mad at me peeps, this is all in good criticism.
From a KRK FADC it’s very hard to not get “all the juggles” (5 of the 6 hits), “very hard” probably being “impossible”. From an AA LP KRK it’s 4 or 5 hits depending on distance.
Isn’t that true for everyone? All the numbers I pulled were with full Ultra, the difference in damage between them gets smaller with less meter. Of course Ryu’s does less damage as well but how many times have you seen Daigo and co. win with a SRK FADC > Metsu Hadouken? Lots. How many times was the meter full? Very few I’m sure.
We’re not mad, just trying to show you the error of your ways I think your decision has been made on poor judgement calls and possibly misleading/false facts as well.
late into the conversation i jump! I have to say, Shinkuu Gadouken! but besides that >< U2 only really did one thing for me- i used it point blank against a Makoto i thought was stunned (foolish pride blinded me), only to have her counter with the ball-busting Seichuusan Godanzuki, but! the blowback happened in those usually frozen frames, saving both of us from damage.
other than that, the sheer fact that Shissho Buraiken goes through almost everything in the game if timed even mediocrely keeps it my steady #1 choice in dealing out Saikyo style beatdown.
Ultra1
**
[LIST]
[] Bad recovery (when blocked), moves you forwards.Punishable on block.
[] Higher damage,but no chip damage.
[]Very good startup, counters most moves + ultras in the game (as a counter attack with appropriate timing).
[/LIST] Ultra2
[LIST]
[]Bad recovery regardless, moves you backwards.Very Punishable during recovery.
[]Less damage, but does chip damage.
[]poor range makes it a risky counter ultra.
[/LIST]
** Both:
[LIST]
[*]are gambles, are decent anti-airs, counter Ultras depending on range.
[/LIST]
Overall
U1: Use this as a counterattack. Hasuseful startup invincibility. Risky against grapplers (but you shouldn’t use Dan against grapplers in general) U2: Use this to end a combo or as an anti-air. Avoid using this on opponents who can teleport.
*You shouldn’t use your ultra 2 to counter any projectile unless your playing mindgames.
It’s better to jump (you can use dankukyaku’s to further your jump distance if needed)
I highly recommend you learn how to use both but learn how to use U1 first.
Ive got a guy on my friends list who manages to combo into haoh maybe 50% of the time, is it pretty much unbelievable even though it does some mediocre damage and some hits whiff I am thinking if you can combo into it it definitely is better, if your a scrub like me stick with Ultra 1.
Finding Ultra 1 increasingly hard to land, no one throwing a projectile at me close or jumping.
Eh personally I think u2 is pretty bad. It doesn’t do much damage for the meter you spend, since it always requires 2 bars to hit irl unless you’re in the corner and get lk danku juggle u2 (and isn’t that character specific anyway? I don’t remember, haven’t used u2 in so long). It also kills positioning, it’s the worst ultra in the entire game for positioning concerns. And as Dan, who’s good up close but bad at getting close to begin with, that’s a very important consideration.
Besides, the only time u2 ever comes up for me is if I want to do dragon punch fadc for safety or pressure reasons. If I have u2, great, there it is. If I don’t, I do hk danku for way less damage but also way better positioning. In fact I don’t even really like using u2 if I’m pressuring and just got a dragon punch frame trap, since I go from being exactly where I want to be to being as far away as possible for less damage than I’d expect to get from continuing my pressure. Other than after random dp fadc I don’t know why I’d ever use it. If I have a big damage or hit confirm opportunity, I have better things to spend 2 bars on as far as damage, stun, and positioning go (like combo into fb fadc toward continue combo).
U1 goes through fireballs and punishes well at a range I can practically expect to be at and react at most of the time. I know the range for ex fireball link to u1 in the corner, it’s not that hard to get yourself there. I can confirm a counterhit close mp into u1 (it’s a 2 frame link after a 17 frame recovery normal, not that hard). I can confirm cr mk xx ex fireball into fadc u1 in footsies. It antiairs some characters for free. If I do get a focus crumple, yay, big meterless damage. And while it doesn’t give the best positioning after it hits, you’re in way way better range than after u2, and in the corner you get a pretty good situation.
So, yeah. I haven’t used u2 in months. Even back in Super when it was invincible and you could antiair with it, I still went with u1 in most matchups.
Yes, U1 offers no juggle capability, but it offers so much damage, invincibility, and retaliation that I can’t say no to it. It is incredibly easy to counter any projectile with U1, and while that might be a mistake only newbs make, U1 punishes them so severely for it that it’s ridiculous. Further, I’ve fought too many opponents with skill that turn back to the projectile game under pressure, where a quick dash or leap can close the gap–and U1 can connect.
Even against other Supers and Ultras, it’s so easy to pull of U1 when you see a Super or Ultra activate, it’s almost foolish to let it go. There are few characters in the game that have a Super or Ultra that can’t be pretty easily countered with U1.
I can’t even begin to think how many times I’ve countered even standard telegraphed moves from Cammy, Balrog, Dudley, Vega, Bison and more with U1.
It’s not that I use u1 to punish fireballs that often, it’s that opponents have to change how they play by not throwing fireballs when they would otherwise want to. U1 is one of the few things that make opponents respect Dan at mid range.
Actually… U2 WAS a decent anti air, but not anymore. I used to use it after baiting Zangiefs to jump forward by dashing back and forth like an idiot. If I do that now, it won’t work just as well… What did Capcom do? “Hmm, let’s see, there are two ultras, one good, one bad… what do? I KNOW! Let’s take the bad ultra and make it even worse! That is GREAT!” If I use U2 as an anti air like I used to, the opponent can just press a button that unleashes a normal with decent range (like Zangiefs jHP) and it will completely interrupt the ultra. If you’re lucky you’ll trade his normal with your U2, but most of the time the projectile won’t even come out. When Ryu or Dhalsim gets stuff while doing their U1 their projectile at least comes out, but for Dan, that does not apply…
Eh, kind of people I play against don’t think of Shissou as an anti-fire ball at mid range and I’m not quick enough to use it as one either. There’s still 3 or 4 bar Super combos with it, which is better than pre-AE.
Still, there’s something really satisfying about landing a hit-confirmed xj.MK > s.HK then linking into KRK FADC > Haoh. Don’t knock the damage it’s still pretty respectable, there are worse Ultra for FADC/juggle damage.
In the end it comes down to preference and your gameplay style, both have their uses now.
Once you understand what fireballs you can react to with Shissou and how range alters how much time you have to react, it becomes a much more concrete tool. It makes throwing fireballs at a very specific range unsafe for the many fireball characters. This optimal range is at the very tip, so you have more time to react to a fireball being thrown. Don’t bother with it when you’re too close, as the fireball’s time of impact is much sooner than it would be otherwise.
Sit in that range during footsies and you can net a nice punish.
I think your decision has been made on poor judgement calls and possibly misleading/false facts as well.